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    Edmund Edgar
    @edmundedgar
    ah, yes, and also it breaks the layering, ie it builds in assumptions about how you settled your bet using a particular arbitrator
    (my utxo suggestion also does this, but I imagine it as a parallel system so the original one is still there)
    josojo
    @josojo
    I see
    josojo
    @josojo
    @edmundedgar Hey, could you please upload the code from London to github somewhere?Thank you
    Edmund Edgar
    @edmundedgar
    Yup, gimme a minute
    Edmund Edgar
    @edmundedgar
    btw I followed your example on structuring the realitio repo, now has an npm package called realitio-contracts etc https://github.com/realitio
    I've been cleaning up the token contract so it compiles etc, will also put it there with some examples reading the realitio code from the npm repo like you do with gnosis-contracts
    josojo
    @josojo
    great! thank you
    josojo
    @josojo

    @edmundedgar
    I am currently reading the book, the intelligent investor from graham, a very old classic. He keeps on pointing out that investing in assets such as gold is not so favorable, because gold is just a collectible and is not "working for you", as stocks do.
    Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies are in some manner also just a collectible. The thought, which is kinda stuck in my head, is that actually, we do not need any cryptocurrency to keep a decentralized worldcomputer running.
    We could also create a decentralized index fond (DIF100) on ethereum, which would hold the top 100 most valuable ico's ( like the Nasdaque 100). This DIF100 could be a smart contract that holds these top 100 ico coins and issues DIF100-tokens representing an owernship in all the top 100 tokens.
    Now, these DIF100-tokens could be used for staking and for paying fees on the blockchain. And suddenly there is no longer any need for any cryptocurrencies.
    I think this is very valuable idea, as index fonds are just the better investment compared to a cryptocurrency, a collectible.

    Why do I write this to you? Because it also applies to the realitytoken concept. We could also create an index fund of companies, which profit from some oracle businesses. All these companies could issue some kind of token, which support the fork-economics protocol. I.e. they are easily forkable on the blockchain using subjectivocracy. These companies could be bundled in a decentralized forkable index fond (DFIF100). The tokens of the DFIF100 could then be used instead of realitytokens. This would give users of the eco system a much better protection, as DFIF100 would be a better investment as realitytokens.

    Edmund Edgar
    @edmundedgar
    wow, yes, I assumed every transaction using the subjectivocracy system would have to use the subjectivocracy token, but you're right, anybody could issue their token on a subjectivocracy system...
    You know how we made a separate tree to keep track of data on behalf of contracts? Maybe there's a generic design where you have an extra parameter expressing your token - basically just add a layer to a mapping. Then another contract could issue a token, and it would automatically work like our subjectivocracy token
    josojo
    @josojo
    Yeah, exactly. I will investigate on this before I start finishing some tests for our setup
    josojo
    @josojo

    Okay, I came up with a new reality concept based on forkonomics. I think it is better than a pure RealityToken concept, as it is not only currency , but also an indexfund generating static value.

    I imagine it in the following steps:

    1. Create the RealityToken, as discussed in London.
    2. Distribute RealityTokens to projects building on the platform, as dicsused
    3. Start an RealityFund: The RealityFund will be made of tokens supporting the ForkonomicToken protocoll. The forkonomicToken protocoll is basically that tokens are forkable each week, as it is implemented for the RealityToken.
      3.1 Add RealityTokens to the fund and make RealityFundtoken as the standard collateral token for the ecosystem.

    After the ecosystem has grown ( maybe in 2 years):

    1. Allow other tokens, which support the ForkonomicToken protocoll , to be added to the RealityFund. Hopefully, there will be tokens/companies issuing tokens, which will generate a steady income and use this income to make their token appreciating in value.
    2. RealityToken should become deflationary as well. Arbitrators might be required by a social contract to use x% of their winnings to burn RealityTokens

    After some more years:

    1. The RealityFund will hopefully support a variety of different ForkonomicTokens, spreading the risks of valuations out to many companies. Only a fraction of this fund is made up by the initial RealityTokens. This should give the RealityFund token a kind of stable value. Hence, it is a great collateral token to use the build ecosystems of dapps around this oracle system.
    josojo
    @josojo
    I know that it might be legally very challenging to build a fund of forkable tokens. AML, KYC etc, that will be all very hard. But that is why we are starting with a simple currency/utilty token: RealityToken. Then maybe at some point later, we will be able to advance the system with ForkonomicTokens issued by companies.

    I cleaned the code from London and put it into a form, such that it supports a RealityFund. You can take a look over here:
    https://github.com/josojo/subjectivocracy/tree/realityFund/contracts

    Basically the RealityFund token is used to decide about the arbitrators, create new RealityBranches etc. And each ForkonomicToken, one of them is RealityToken, uses the branch structure of the RealityFund to handle it's own balances.

    Edmund Edgar
    @edmundedgar
    This looks really interesting, I'll look through it tomorrow
    josojo
    @josojo

    Cool, please don't look to close, as there are still small bugs in the code.

    I am rewriting the plan, due to all these language mistakes:

    1. Create the RealityToken, as discussed in London.
    2. Distribute RealityTokens to projects building on the platform, as discussed
    3. Start a RealityFund: The RealityFund will be made of tokens supporting the ForkonomicToken protocol. The forkonomicToken protocol enforces tokens to support a weekly branching process. All branches created in the RealityFund are required to be supported by the ForkonomicTokens as well.
      3.1 Add RealityTokens to the RealityFund and make RealityFund-Token the standard collateral token for the ecosystem.

    After the ecosystem has grown ( maybe in 2 years):

    1. Allow other tokens, which support the ForkonomicToken protocol to be added to the RealityFund. Hopefully, there will be tokens/companies issuing tokens, which will generate a steady revenue stream. Tokens with a proper revenue stream, good business proposition should make it more attractive to people holding/using RealityFund-Tokens.
    2. RealityToken should become deflationary as well. Arbitrators might be required by a social contract to use x% of their winnings to burn RealityTokens

    After some more years:

    The RealityFund will hopefully support a variety of different ForkonomicTokens, spreading the risks of valuations out to many companies. Only a fraction of this fund is made up by the initial RealityTokens. This should give the RealityFund token a "predictable" value backed by real company shares. Hence, it is would be a great collateral token to use in this new oracle ecosystems.

    Main Advantage:
    RealityFund-tokens do have value even for people not believing in new currencies/ utility tokens

    Main Disadvantages:
    Forking or splitting a company is much harder than just forking a utility token. New company leaders need to be chosen and the duplication process of company resources should not be hindered by licenses and copyrights.

    Hopefully, we will see that the RealityToken system anyways will not split for a longer time period - only temporarily - and hence the ecosystem would very very rarely go through the pain of splitting companies.

    If you like this plan as well, I will put more focus on the coding effort

    josojo
    @josojo
    @edmundedgar
    Do you like the idea of a fund, or do you think it is impractical?
    Edmund Edgar
    @edmundedgar
    OK, trying to make sure I've understood it
    So the RealityFund is a token backed by a bunch of other forkonomic tokens?
    I don't understand how it's valuable to people don't believe in new currencies / utility tokens
    josojo
    @josojo

    So the RealityFund is a token backed by a bunch of other forkonomic tokens?
    Yes, at some later point in time.

    I hope that these forkonomic tokens are more structured as a security/stock token, ie. the issuing companies generates some profit and then distributes this profit to tokenholders. In contrast, utility tokens or currency tokens do not generate value and do not distribute dividends, they are just useful in some ecosystem.
    But many people believe that security tokens have a much better value proposition as utility/currency tokens, as they are generating value and are backed by real goods and services. Their value can be calculated. In contrast, the value of currencies tokens depends heavily on the perception of people and very often we see that their value depends on some adaption cycles.

    All I am trying to do with my proposal is to merge the benefits of the "old financial structure" of stocks with this new concept of a currency token. I think it has very beneficial, if we start with simple currency tokens, but keep the door open for the transformation to a fund

    josojo
    @josojo

    Take a look from this perspective:
    If we ask the usual bettors/market participants of the subjectivocracy system to take over all the system platform risk ( basically the volatility of the realityToken value), then we need to make sure that this risk is as low as possible and that people are comfortable holding this asset.
    Now, lets look at the global markets and the asset that people are comfortable holding: It's clearly ETFs. They have the best value proposition and they spread out risk well.
    => My conclusion: Let's try to make realityFund as close as possible to an ETF. Because then the systemic risk is as low as it can get. THat is why I want to build it as a fund.

    Also:
    The average person holds his wealth in ETFs. People need to invest in funds, as they are a means to protect against their wealth against inflation. Hence, there will be an interest to invest in a kind of RealityFund, which is made out of companies, anyways. And if people are invested in RealityFund anyways, then there is no disadvantage to use it in any kind of betting market.

    I am 100% convinced that a realitfund is - on a theoretical level - better than a just a realityToken. But whether this is realistic from a regulatory point of view, is another good question. But we should at least try it out!

    I am very curious about your opinion. Maybe we wanna do a call?

    josojo
    @josojo

    Here are two examples of companies where the creating a forkonomic token model makes sense:
    Company A:
    Imagine company A has built a peer-to-peer insurance platform where insurance police buyers and sellers come together. The buyer can create request for an insurances policies to insure his house against some damage [ think of floods, storms, etc]. Then, a police sellers could make a offer for provide for the buyer the insurance policy for a certain premium. If the buyer accepts an offer of a seller, the contract will be created by the platform, a small fee will be charged and his house will be insured. Now, if the fee is charged within RealityFund tokens on a certain branch, company A could force itself to use these generate fees to support their own forkonomic tokens value by buying up and burning their own tokens value on the same branch, as the fee was provided.

    Using this model, the business model copies itself easily over all branches in a split of the system. That is exactly what we want for the system.

    Company B:
    Imagine company B's business model is to insure people and act as a market maker on the insurance platform of company A. I.e., the company B screens the asks of customers on the platform for policies, calculates for each policy premiums for which they would insure the houses and the creating the offer. If company B makes the premium calculation correct, they will profit in the long term.
    Probably the company B would make the profits again on some certain branch of the eco system. If they use these profits again to deflate their own forkonomic token on this branch [ enforced by smart contracts], then the business logic splits well over all branches of the system.

    But most likely such a company B would not like to be forced to use their own profit directly to deflate their own forkonomic token with a built-in system. Then they would have a choice for distributing their profits on any branch. They could bundle their winnings and distribute it on a branch, which they prefer. These companies would still have a huge incentive of sticking to the most active branch, as otherwise their reputation and network effects are lost. If they don't do it and distribute their winnings on some weird non-used branch, the realityfund could still decided to sell the companies share on this branch and use the money to rebuy another forkonomic-token.

    If the RealityFund is filled with different companies - some of which split natural in the system and others that don't - , I feel that the realityFund would have nearly the same properties as the realityToken during a split.

    josojo
    @josojo

    You know how we made a separate tree to keep track of data on behalf of contracts? Maybe there's a generic design where you have an extra parameter expressing your token - basically just add a layer to a mapping. Then another contract could issue a token, and it would automatically work like our subjectivocracy token

    Took me some time, but I came up with such a principle:
    https://github.com/josojo/subjectivocracy/blob/realityFund/contracts/ForkonomicSystem.sol
    ForkonomicSystem is the backbone for all tokens. It just takes care about new branches and the arbitrator whitelist.
    Any token can then be added later by inheriting the ForkonomicToken.sol
    https://github.com/josojo/subjectivocracy/blob/realityFund/contracts/ForkonomicToken.sol

    The ForkonomicETF is an example how the ForkonomicToken.sol structure can be reused:
    https://github.com/josojo/subjectivocracy/blob/realityFund/contracts/ForkonomicETF.sol
    Code compiles but there are small bugs in it.

    I am very happy with this design, as it is build on several layers:

    1. only taking care of arbitrators selection via branching
    2. forkonomic token protocol taking care of transfering value on branches
    3. Applications as RealityToken or ForkonomicsFund.
    josojo
    @josojo

    I am advancing the code on the master branch now,
    https://github.com/josojo/subjectivocracy

    as I am so happy with the construction.
    I also edited the https://github.com/josojo/subjectivocracy/blob/master/Forkonomics.md . Looking forward to get some feedback

    Edmund Edgar
    @edmundedgar
    cool, still mentally processing this