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    Cong Ye
    @siriusye
    The ICO is a double sword, team got the money for a long time development, however, there are thousands of ICO participants having bad memory about the project. Even though one day the project successes , there will be people talking about those stories.
    TL;DR is that the Eth gas prices are getting out of hand.
    redsea
    @15926222352
    When can the red language really connect with the blockchain? The information update once a few months is too slow. Can you be more responsible to the supporters
    Gregg Irwin
    @greggirwin
    It's true we got stuck with internal work that wasn't ready to release before the pandemic hit. We'll include blockchain plans in our next roadmap.
    redsea
    @15926222352
    OK, I hope more communication
    Cong Ye
    @siriusye
    i dont think they actually will do it before the main red language reaches the stage it can be used for blockchain. Technically i even don't think it is possible to write contract with RED as planned in the white paper. just accept it, this is a money grab ICO. The team never cared about ICO investigators.
    Boleslav Březovský
    @rebolek
    No, it's not possible with Red and that was never the plan. However, it's possible with the Red-based C3 dialect. Calling this money grab is an unfair insult.
    Cong Ye
    @siriusye

    No, it's not possible with Red and that was never the plan. However, it's possible with the Red-based C3 dialect. Calling this money grab is an unfair insult.

    well, this project causes people lost 99% of their investment. The token price went from $0.6 to now $0.0029. Roadmap on the originally white paper has been delayed for 2 years. There is no updates about c3 at all. Tell me why this is not a money grab project? Team simply wants money to continue this project and their RED lang dream. They are not willing to do anything for the investment return even only for implementing c3 as they suggested on the white paper. If you think i am insult the project, show me something about C3, anything, on the code level or even a more clear plan. It is not on the github, not on the task list, it is not even exist.

    Cong Ye
    @siriusye
    it has been nearly 3 years since the ICO, there must be something.
    redsea
    @15926222352
    It's been three years. It's really sad
    redsea
    @15926222352
    Fil started almost with you. Now the main network has been online. Why is the difference so big? It's mainly about technology for three years. I don't even know what you're doing. At least I didn't see it
    Petr Krenzelok
    @pekr
    Red as a technology still evolves. If you want to watch daily progress, you can do so here - https://progress.red-lang.org/
    Other than that, with particular releases, there are blog articles. There are also certain milestones at Trello board, though not sure how accurate those are. Maybe Red should have some Roadmap published at the website, just dunno, but updated Trello would be good enough .... https://trello.com/b/FlQ6pzdB/red-tasks-overview
    Vladimir Vasilyev
    @9214

    To @siriusye and @15926222352:

    I don't even know what you're doing.

    I'm afraid that makes all the opinions you voice in this room either uninformed or misleading. To learn what we are doing you can simply follow the official blog or our main technical chat, or stay up-to-date elsewhere. Granted, all the announcements are framed for the technical audience passionate about the project, not passive "investors".

    Why? There's a committed sin of dichotomy: a line drawn in the sand between people following the long-term technological lineage that Red embodies as a guerilla in the trenches of war against software complexity, and people interested only in short-term gains from RED token price fluctuations and changes in liquidity from listings on exchanges. That's the contrast as striking as the difference between nomadism and capitalism, but I'm going a bit over my head here. These people genuinely do care, but about entirely different things: Red the tech and RED the token.

    They are not willing to do anything

    With that being said, here is a listicle of a huge, stinky pile of utter nothing (as you claim) that has been done (or hasn't?) in the last year, in no specific order:

    1. money! datatype, which allows you to specify both fiat and cryptocurrencies, so that you can write in C3 RED$0.123 + 4. Then there's also a dedicated branch that extends the support beyond 3-letter currency identifiers, which are quite common in crypto space;
    2. ref! datatype — more of a syntactical nicety, which nevertheless allows modeling various references and identifiers in C3, e.g. send @siriusye ETH$0.88;
    3. Instrumented lexer, which from now on permits usage for custom literal forms not directly supported by the base language, e.g. Ethereum addresses in the 0xabcd..ef form;
    4. JSON codec grants Red the ability to talk with Ethereum nodes via JSON-RPC protocol that they implement;
    5. Major rehaul of Redbin format: in the context of C3, this allows the implementation of, say, an image-based development environment where the state of the interpreter can be serialized and send for troubleshooting or verification, or maybe time-traveling debugger where you can jump between the states of contract execution step-by-step;
    6. GTK backend have been brought on par with Win32 and Cocoa, so that native DApps can be truly cross-platform and bane Electron bloat from existence, or so Red/C3 pitches;
    7. The foundation for ports have been laid down, so that not only regular Red programs, but also C3 scripts can connect to the Ethereum network.

    And that doesn't cover all the internal work on tokenomics, prototyping, design discussions &c.

    Vladimir Vasilyev
    @9214

    The upshot is that C3 is an embedded domain-specific language, and that the degree of its completion is largely dependant on the evolution of the host language. Red's team is a small and dedicated one, it can't redirect all the man-power solely to C3, and has to kill not just two, but three or even five birds with one (mile)stone; we advance not directly, but laterally.

    Yet, you have the nerve to call all of that a "money grab".

    show me something about C3

    All of the bullet points that I listed above are about C3 one way or another. Besides, here is an extensive R&D I did on C3 design and dusted off the shelf.

    It's a draft, yes; it's shaggy, incomplete and cut in pieces, because some of them weren't finished, some went directly to prototyping stage, and some are too biased to share or closed under informal NDA. I'm not gonna apologize for the state of it, rather, I expect an apology from you for insulting my and other's hard work.

    it is not even exist

    It does, albeit in a private repository sitting on a back-burner... and then it doesn't. "Existing" is an essentialist category denoting a fixed entity with definite qualities and no capacity for change; Red's ontology is, on the contrary, immanent to the world of matter-energy-information flow — there's no being, only becoming of an open-source project. It's an emergent process driven by human singularities scattered across the globe (an entrainment phenomenon; boy, do I like to digress).

    And you can join us by contributing, anytime, anyplace — after all, it's not a matter of extensive (geographical distance, timezone, amount of free time alloted to you on weekends) but intensive (well-preparedness of pull-requests, frequency of helping advices, usefulness snippets) properties. Are you tired of waiting for C3 for too long? Make it come! Or plates are truly full, yet we keep piling more and more on top.

    Being a financial contributor and benefactor is hugely appreciated, but that does not give you any right to come with your rules in someone else's monastery, doing not as Romans do — attacking the project, assigning blame for the allegedly lost investment, even though no financial returns were ever promised (see p.13 about legal considerations).

    The token offering involves and relates to the development and use of experimental software and technologies that may not come to fruition or achieve the objectives specified in this white paper. The purchase of tokens represents a high risk to any contributors.

    "It's really sad", as you have put it.

    MohamedDenta
    @MohamedDenta
    Any payment gateways that accept (visa and cryptocurrency) ?
    Cong Ye
    @siriusye
    All those information just shows that C3 is stopped at an early research stage. Then it has been decided for an infinite pause. If the team needs 10 years to finish RED, then C3 will only start after that. I dont know why mentioning official blog or main technical chat, if someone search C3 there, nothing turns out. Also Vlad you refer to the white paper for the no financial returns part, why you don't refer to the road map part? If the no financial returns is true, the road map should be true too. In addition to that, create a private repo costs very little effort, we all can create as much as we can. Show something real and systemically done is a more solid prove.
    Cong Ye
    @siriusye
    i don't really want to attack the project. I don't hate RED. but sometimes the attitude of the team makes me feel really outrage. How people can really don't care? In the ICO, people contributed 28137 eth in the ICO. Back to the ICO time, it worth 40million dollars. The team just walked away with the money with an attitude of i dont want to allocate manpower for this direction. This left thousands of investigators strangling in a huge loss without any chance...
    Vladimir Vasilyev
    @9214

    @siriusye

    All those information just shows that C3 is stopped at an early research stage

    A lengthy research paper and 7 factual statements about C3 being developed laterally with each new milestone show that everything has ground to a halt before it even started? If you say so.

    If the team needs 10 years to finish RED, then C3 will only start after that

    Or the team can throw out an incomplete prototype just to satisfy your urge and move the RED price up (or not). Is that what you want?

    Show something real and systemically done is a more solid prove.

    All the blog announcements and news in the official channels are done more-or-less systematically (granted, we lack an up-to-date roadmap as @pekr noted). We also have a dedicated aggregator. Have you read them before making such claims? Also: 7 factual statements about the work being done in the last year, all of which provide direct benefits to C3. Have you read them too? If you did, then you saw everything there is to publicly show.

    If the no financial returns is true, the road map should be true too.

    Non sequitur. Re-read the p.13 and direct quotation I referred to earlier in full, without selectively skipping parts.

    i don't really want to attack the project

    Yet you do. Is that an apology for insulting other's work?

    but sometimes the attitude of the team makes me feel really outrage

    I cannot speak on behalf of the project and the Red team, but personally, I'm very, very sorry for working on Red non-stop for the last year, sometimes skipping weekends and dedicating all my spare time to contributions (roughly 3.1 out of 7 above-mentioned bullet points) — truly, one can see how such an attitude can be outraging. Friggin' nerds!

    But alas, I cannot help myself but keep pumping. So, I suggest you simply leave this room and stop getting into such a bad mood, wasting your nerve cells on peasant coders who can't make you rich in a blink of an eye.

    How people can really don't care?

    Indeed, how? That's what I keep asking myself every time I look at the similar exchanges in this room and elsewhere.

    Back to the ICO time, it worth 40million dollars.

    Yes, and then Ethereum badly crashed, and so is RED, because it's an ERC-20 token. And after that "investors" spread the liquidity of an already illiquid asset with unauthorized listings on exchanges. Let's keep our facts straight.

    The team just walked away with the money with an attitude of i dont want to allocate manpower for this direction

    That makes me think you simply dismissed all the points I've raised in the previous message, preferring instead to pose as a victim of the bad Red team, "the disingenuous thieves who left thousands of contributors without a dime after said contributors consciously made a highly risky, speculative purchase".

    Be that way.

    Gregg Irwin
    @greggirwin

    How people can really don't care? ... The team just walked away with the money with an attitude of i dont want to allocate manpower for this direction.

    Now you're speculating on what we feel and why we've made the decisions we have. Please understand that every day we show up and make the best decisions we can in where to put our time and efforts.

    To say the ICO was a cash grab, and to say we don't care, is insulting and unfounded. We started down the blockchain path after a great deal of consideration, knowing it was a new and risky area.

    @siriusye, let me ask you a few questions, if I may. How do you feel about other blockchain projects, which are run well, and which have succeeded? This can include projects like ours, or from big companies like FAANG, MS and others. Have they made blockchains a successful technology, widely adopted, and with a strong user base? Have we missed that window of opportunity? Has another project done what we set out to do, and done it successfully?

    We have been very clear, from day one of the blockchain related projects associated with Red, that we are not about the crypto craze; we are about the technology. Our stance has consistently been that our goals were long term, though we really, really hoped to keep step with our roadmap. For many reasons that hasn't happened.

    This is where we are now. And we continue to make decisions based on the long view. If you invested in MS, a FAANG company, etc. do you do so expecting to cash out in a few years and make a huge profit? That's not investing, that's gambling, and unrealistic. What happens now, with modern VC-backed companies? They raise money, burn it as fast as they can, and raise more. Either they sell out or they fail. That's the model. Maybe you like that model, but we don't.

    Is it possible we'll try to raise more money? Yes. Do we want to? No. We are doing our best to use the resources we have for long term success. If you don't like the way we're doing things, you can continue to complain, but if you really want Red (and RED) to succeed, be constructive. Offer your skills and knowledge in the blockchain dev area. Other deep core skills are needed too.

    @9214 pointed out a number of technical pieces that have been done, which are needed for C3. We didn't have a complete design 2+ years ago, so we didn't know what all the pieces would be, or the challenges. You may approach development differently, but we don't want to slam things out and compromise long term design and usability. If you follow any other Red channels, you'll see we get pushback on this and don't "move fast and break things" like other projects. That can be frustrating from the outside, and we understand that. So we take time to be visible here in the community and try to keep the lines of communication open.

    redsea
    @15926222352
    @siriusye We support you and speak your mind. As you said above, we don't hate the red team at all, but their attitude is very angry. We just want an attitude that the team should have
    @greggirwin Keep going
    Maciej Łoziński
    @loziniak

    @9214 nice C3 state summary, thanks. It clarifies a lot. Things like this should go on a webpage. Probably not so much work, but benefits are probably worth it, just to mention increase of RED token value, which translates to faster development and pushing in direction of everyone's goals. Not to mention making my day :-)

    Besides, thanks for creating a red/REP#84 for long currency names. I postponed it couple times and finally forgot about it.

    In the meantime, ETH limitations (energy consumption, transaction costs) make some earlier use cases obsolete, and make people move to other platforms (EOS, TRON). Crypto world moves so fast, 3 years may mean a totally different landscape and a need to re-design some solutions, or even make some tech (Ethereum VM?) irrelevant.
    Gregg Irwin
    @greggirwin
    @loziniak indeed, genuine use cases are the rarest commodity in the blockchain world.
    But I still believe we'll see people address this. Not all chains need to be global, or even public. If a consortium works together for their own benefit, or a government requires it for auditing purposes, side chains could work. As with fiat, grouping micropayments is a way to reduce overhead.
    Cong Ye
    @siriusye

    blockquote Yes, and then Ethereum badly crashed, and so is RED, because it's an ERC-20 token. And after that "investors" spread the liquidity of an already illiquid asset with unauthorized listings on exchanges. Let's keep our facts straight.

    For this, there is no transparency about how the funding is used. At least at the time the ICO happened, ETH worth 40million dollars. Even in the worse case scenarios, it still worth a few million dollars. I've never said I expect red to do all the speculation things. I was trying to emphases that the price crash because it caused people lost a lot money. I surely know this changed some people life in a bad way. But after doing all those things to benefactors, RED is even not willing to spend some real resource on the promised C3. The information @9214 shows is good, but it is not worth for 3 years of R&D. I don't know he is full time working on the blockchain area or just do it part time, or even just do it when he have time. $40million cannot even hire 1 people to work full time for this area.

    @loziniak i agree with you, there should be a page to show the C3 progress.

    Respectech
    @Respectech
    With Red, there is hope. With most other ICOs of the time, they were junk and have no hope now. All money has been taken by the creators of those scam ICOs. Red is different because it is a long-term strategy to make software development better. It is hard to wait, but I am willing to wait because I don't see any other effort that has as much hope as Red to make things better. I also have money invested in Red as well as other crypto. At one point I had lost well over $100K, mostly due to ETH. But I didn't invest anything that I could not afford to lose. That should be everyone's strategy. I don't understand how people are not willing to take responsibility when they gamble with money they cannot afford to lose, and then want to place the blame on the gamble instead of on themselves for taking the gamble.
    redsea
    @15926222352
    @siriusye I agree with you and hope to have a page to do C3 well
    @Respectech I agree with you and hope to have a page to do C3 well
    The red token has almost disappeared from people's view. There is no transaction volume, no news. All right, keep waiting for your success
    Cong Ye
    @siriusye

    With Red, there is hope. With most other ICOs of the time, they were junk and have no hope now. All money has been taken by the creators of those scam ICOs. Red is different because it is a long-term strategy to make software development better. It is hard to wait, but I am willing to wait because I don't see any other effort that has as much hope as Red to make things better. I also have money invested in Red as well as other crypto. At one point I had lost well over $100K, mostly due to ETH. But I didn't invest anything that I could not afford to lose. That should be everyone's strategy. I don't understand how people are not willing to take responsibility when they gamble with money they cannot afford to lose, and then want to place the blame on the gamble instead of on themselves for taking the gamble.

    it is a not a blame. I am trying to push RED team spend some resources on the promised C3. As i said, i didn't ask anything for speculators. I just ask two things why they are not following the roadmap they provided and why there is not information about the C3 development.

    Everyone is here talk about long term, how long is a long term, 10 years, 20 years? There should a roadmap to show the long term, long term is not equivalent to forever. It can be delayed, but there should be a plan. If the old roadmap is not applicable then make a new one.

    In addition to that, revealing some information about C3 development is also not something to much to ask. People thrown millions in the project, they even dont have a right to know how is the progress.

    redsea
    @15926222352
    @siriusye It is also true that there is still a need for the plan. We can talk about a long-term but more responsible attitude towards the supporters
    The price and trading volume of red token are already unbearable. Why should excellent projects treat themselves like this? I don't know what the project side thinks of this problem
    Gregg Irwin
    @greggirwin
    @siriusye @15926222352 would either of you care to respond to my message from 17-Nov, rather than just repeating past complaints? The goal being to improve things going forward, and understanding and managing expectations.
    redsea
    @15926222352
    What we need to improve is to learn from everyone and the team
    redsea
    @15926222352
    @greggirwin I don't know what the significance of issuing red token is, or what is the use value of red token? Is it for the purpose of financing? Can we create a decentralized community and use red token to jointly determine the development direction of red language
    @greggirwin I don't care about the price of the red token. I just hope to make the red language change and develop well through your opinions
    @greggirwin Just like sushi and uniswap, the popular decentralized exchanges, isn't using token community voting the real meaning of decentralization
    redsea
    @15926222352
    @greggirwin What is the nature of blockchain? I hope your team will seriously consider why it is necessary to issue red token if it is not for decentralization
    redsea
    @15926222352
    It's time to update the blog of the scientists in red language. I haven't seen any news about the project for four months in a row. It's OK to take a moment to write a few words https://www.red-lang.org/
    Gregg Irwin
    @greggirwin
    We generally point people to https://progress.red-lang.org/ for ongoing status. We hoped to do regular blog posts, but that hasn't happened.
    redsea
    @15926222352
    In 2018, the red language group started at about US $1000. The price of ICO's red token is about US $0.25. I would like to ask you why the price of Ethereum's red token is still about US $0.002. Can you tell the investors where and how to use the ETH raised by ICO at that time?
    Don't answer what I said about value investment. I don't approve of short-term speculation. As an investor, I have the right to care about where my money is spent. Do you think I'm asking too much?
    redsea
    @15926222352

    For those who missed our sales, the token sales process took place from January 8th to January 31st 2018, in three stages:

    • Private Investors (Jan 8th - Jan 11th): 1 ETH => 3400 RED
    • Early Birds (Jan 12th - Jan 15th): 1 ETH => 2750 RED
    • Open round (Jan 16th - Jan 31th): 1 ETH => 2500 RED
      The total amound of RED created will be allocated in the following manner:

    • Red Foundation: 35% (70,000,000 RED)

    • Red Team: 15% (30,000,000 RED) with a 12 months lockup period.
    • Private Investors: 10% (20,000,000 RED) with a 3 months lockup period, unlocked on May 1st 2018.
    • Open Sales (earlybird + open rounds): 30% (60,000,000 RED)
    • Marketing/Strategic: 10% (20,000,000 RED)
      The total amount RED sold was 28137 ETH. We will use the ETH for the following purposes:

    • 60% for team recruitment and operations in Hong-Kong and San Francisco offices.

    • 20% for RED token sales expenses.
    • 10% for marketing operations.
    • 10% for outsourced software developments.

    Those allocations will change depending on the conversion ratio of ETH with fiat money.

    We are working on building Red software stack since many years and have a solid tech community to support it. Now that we have the funds to develop Red further, we are expanding the teams and can push Red further than ever. Red is there to stay and continue growing.

    We are so grateful, more than we can say, to have such a supportive (and growing) community around us. On behalf of the entire RED team, I want to share our appreciation for you all, and I personally want to thank each of you for loving and believing in Red.
    To Red's future, our future!

    Gregg Irwin
    @greggirwin

    I would like to ask you why the price of Ethereum's red token is still about US $0.002.

    How can we know? We have no control over the state of crypto fluctuations beyond what we do with Red to bring value to RED tokens.

    Can you tell the investors where and how to use the ETH raised by ICO at that time?

    Just as we said in the message you quoted:

    ...develop Red further, we are expanding the teams and can push Red further than ever.

    Along with things @9214 nicely detailed last November, the progress page we linked to in various messages, and all the public chat here on Gitter. This is where we direct people who ask on Telegram as well. In addition to the public rooms we have private rooms, and other channels we use for internal development chat.

    If you haven't seen in the main rooms, we released a tool called DiaGrammar, which is a huge milestone for us. v1 doesn't have sharing features, but those are planned. We have a long list of tool and product ideas, and collaboration aspects are always considered from a blockchain perspective as well.

    In DiaGrammar's case, grammars are at the core, and can be used for languages, data formats, APIs, and even protocols and business processes to some extent. Say your business depends on any of those, or if you work with another company and you depend on their language or data format. If you put those specifications on the blockchain (more realistically as hash or checksum of the specification), you can start long term development against that spec, including writing legal and programmatic contracts knowing that it won't change out from under you without somebody knowing and being accountable. That doesn't solve all the problems of course, it's just one piece of it, but it can be an important one.

    redsea
    @15926222352
    red.png
    If the price of the red token continues to maintain this price, most people will not be able to buy the red token, because the service charge for cash withdrawal to the wallet is too high, and ordinary users will not be able to pay such a high service charge for cash withdrawal, because the price of Ethereum is too high compared with the red token.
    Gregg Irwin
    @greggirwin
    All we can control is the Red technology that we hope will add value to RED, but even that is not a guarantee. We cannot control anything related to the price of RED beyond that, and certainly not things like exchange service charges.