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    Vladimir Vasilyev
    @9214
    @loziniak I don't follow, supporting ISO 4217 doesn't preclude us from allowing user-defined currencies. It's a reference standard, not a mandate. Red complies with it in a sense that it uses the same currency codes, not e.g. DLR for a dollar or ERO for a euro.
    Maciej Łoziński
    @loziniak
    I understand that. All I want to say is when we don't follow the standard strictly, limittation to 3 characters is excessive to me.
    If RED is allowed to be a currency, DASH should also be at least possible to add to the list.
    Vladimir Vasilyev
    @9214

    OK, but without some upper boundary we're setting up a fertile ground for things like MYCOOLTOKEN$1337.

    Anyway, if using currencies with more than 3 letters is something urgent for your project, I can look into that, but the usual procedure is that you open a wish ticket and wait for eons for it to be evaluated and then maybe fulfilled :wink:

    Maciej Łoziński
    @loziniak
    I don't see anything wrong with MYCOOLTOKEN$1337 as long as somebody needs it in his app. Probably we could make a record in wish ticket acceptance speed! :-D
    Vladimir Vasilyev
    @9214

    we don't follow the standard strictly

    As I said, ISO 4217 doesn't mandate that "all the rest of the currency codes not in the list are forbidden to be in use, and if you do use them then you are Bad and you should feel Bad!". By saying that ISO 4217 is supported we say that e.g. PHP is Philippine peso and not some token that PHP Language Foundation decided to create, like Red Foundation did with RED.

    Maciej Łoziński
    @loziniak

    we don't follow the standard strictly

    To be clear - I'm strongly against following the standard strictly.

    Vladimir Vasilyev
    @9214
    @loziniak may I ask you what's the use-case? Do you need currency codes purely for displaying/formatting? Or do you need arithmetic/comparison operations with a bulk of multiple currencies, and DASH is among them?
    Maciej Łoziński
    @loziniak
    The latter, but my own currency (X3MB) not DASH.
    Vladimir Vasilyev
    @9214
    OK, so you propose to remove a limitation on currency code length and to allow usage of non-alphabetic characters (or at least to permit digits)?
    Maciej Łoziński
    @loziniak
    Exactly. Except that digits are already allowed if I'm correct.
    Vladimir Vasilyev
    @9214
    Yes, but only if digit is not the first character, because then it won't be a word!.
    Maciej Łoziński
    @loziniak
    That's OK for me.
    Vladimir Vasilyev
    @9214
    In the meantime, it's worth opening a wish ticket with a link to this discussion. AFAIK this proposal, if accepted, would require modifications in lexer and runtime code (+ writing extra tests), so it's not an overnight change. You can always try to hack your way in a separate branch though.
    Maciej Łoziński
    @loziniak
    I'll try. Thanks.
    Gregg Irwin
    @greggirwin

    The goal is to be useful to the most people, and the standard helps with that as a guideline. BTC, ETH, and RED are special crypto cases. Beyond that, we may want to consider a model like the standard uses (country code + currency letter, or X + precious metal symbol). There are pros and cons to short names too. In finance it's well known, and makes it easy to format things uniformly. That is, the codes are not meant to be self explanatory. That may help normal people, but not experts in the domain.

    The proliferation of cryptocurrencies is insane, but it's a new world too. We have to choose between playing favorites (RED) and blessing some, eliminating limits, or telling people that they just need to come up with a moniker that fits our 3-letter model. Right now we've blessed a few, and if someone wants to use theirs with money, how painful is it to use _X3 or _DA?

    3 letters is certainly limiting, but we should think about other issues, e.g., special characters.

    Vladimir Vasilyev
    @9214

    @loziniak

    >> append system/locale/currencies/list 'x3mb ()
    >> X3MB$1330 + 7
    == X3MB$1337.00
    >> append system/locale/currencies/list 'moon-soon ()
    >> negate -moon-soon$42
    == MOON-SOON$42.00

    Exclusive offer! :wink: Hacked in a few hours and not thoroughly tested though, so play with that and see how bad it is. I'll keep the branch around as a PoC for your wish, in case it will be granted.

    Petr Krenzelok
    @pekr
    First language supporting crypto currencies as a datatype might be a nice marketing claim 😀
    Maciej Łoziński
    @loziniak
    @9214 thanks a lot!
    Cong Ye
    @siriusye
    if you guys still have eth, can put the token on Uniswap. it is a quite interesting idea, and fully open source dex..https://github.com/Uniswap
    Cong Ye
    @siriusye
    defi is so hot, a quite interesting idea for pongzi, team has good development ability, can do a good defi project
    Gringo
    @15926222352
    @siriusye Good advice if your red team is ethical
    @greggirwin I know that red language teams are all technical experts, but marketing and token are equally important, and leaders need the masses
    Cong Ye
    @siriusye

    @siriusye Good advice if your red team is ethical

    The team is not immoral at least in comparing to many other pure scam projects back to 2018. RED ICO is just yet another money grab project. However, the cold blooded attitude from the team is the worst part. Most of the team members were simply showing no care about the token community/ico participants. They only care about their RED language. And ICO participants paid for their dream.

    Cong Ye
    @siriusye
    Due to the crazy market back to 2018, people invested money they cannot afford to lose to many projects. That was another problem.
    The ICO is a double sword, team got the money for a long time development, however, there are thousands of ICO participants having bad memory about the project. Even though one day the project successes , there will be people talking about those stories.
    TL;DR is that the Eth gas prices are getting out of hand.
    Gringo
    @15926222352
    When can the red language really connect with the blockchain? The information update once a few months is too slow. Can you be more responsible to the supporters
    Gregg Irwin
    @greggirwin
    It's true we got stuck with internal work that wasn't ready to release before the pandemic hit. We'll include blockchain plans in our next roadmap.
    Gringo
    @15926222352
    OK, I hope more communication
    Cong Ye
    @siriusye
    i dont think they actually will do it before the main red language reaches the stage it can be used for blockchain. Technically i even don't think it is possible to write contract with RED as planned in the white paper. just accept it, this is a money grab ICO. The team never cared about ICO investigators.
    Boleslav Březovský
    @rebolek
    No, it's not possible with Red and that was never the plan. However, it's possible with the Red-based C3 dialect. Calling this money grab is an unfair insult.
    Cong Ye
    @siriusye

    No, it's not possible with Red and that was never the plan. However, it's possible with the Red-based C3 dialect. Calling this money grab is an unfair insult.

    well, this project causes people lost 99% of their investment. The token price went from $0.6 to now $0.0029. Roadmap on the originally white paper has been delayed for 2 years. There is no updates about c3 at all. Tell me why this is not a money grab project? Team simply wants money to continue this project and their RED lang dream. They are not willing to do anything for the investment return even only for implementing c3 as they suggested on the white paper. If you think i am insult the project, show me something about C3, anything, on the code level or even a more clear plan. It is not on the github, not on the task list, it is not even exist.

    Cong Ye
    @siriusye
    it has been nearly 3 years since the ICO, there must be something.
    Gringo
    @15926222352
    It's been three years. It's really sad
    Gringo
    @15926222352
    Fil started almost with you. Now the main network has been online. Why is the difference so big? It's mainly about technology for three years. I don't even know what you're doing. At least I didn't see it
    Petr Krenzelok
    @pekr
    Red as a technology still evolves. If you want to watch daily progress, you can do so here - https://progress.red-lang.org/
    Other than that, with particular releases, there are blog articles. There are also certain milestones at Trello board, though not sure how accurate those are. Maybe Red should have some Roadmap published at the website, just dunno, but updated Trello would be good enough .... https://trello.com/b/FlQ6pzdB/red-tasks-overview
    Vladimir Vasilyev
    @9214

    To @siriusye and @15926222352:

    I don't even know what you're doing.

    I'm afraid that makes all the opinions you voice in this room either uninformed or misleading. To learn what we are doing you can simply follow the official blog or our main technical chat, or stay up-to-date elsewhere. Granted, all the announcements are framed for the technical audience passionate about the project, not passive "investors".

    Why? There's a committed sin of dichotomy: a line drawn in the sand between people following the long-term technological lineage that Red embodies as a guerilla in the trenches of war against software complexity, and people interested only in short-term gains from RED token price fluctuations and changes in liquidity from listings on exchanges. That's the contrast as striking as the difference between nomadism and capitalism, but I'm going a bit over my head here. These people genuinely do care, but about entirely different things: Red the tech and RED the token.

    They are not willing to do anything

    With that being said, here is a listicle of a huge, stinky pile of utter nothing (as you claim) that has been done (or hasn't?) in the last year, in no specific order:

    1. money! datatype, which allows you to specify both fiat and cryptocurrencies, so that you can write in C3 RED$0.123 + 4. Then there's also a dedicated branch that extends the support beyond 3-letter currency identifiers, which are quite common in crypto space;
    2. ref! datatype — more of a syntactical nicety, which nevertheless allows modeling various references and identifiers in C3, e.g. send @siriusye ETH$0.88;
    3. Instrumented lexer, which from now on permits usage for custom literal forms not directly supported by the base language, e.g. Ethereum addresses in the 0xabcd..ef form;
    4. JSON codec grants Red the ability to talk with Ethereum nodes via JSON-RPC protocol that they implement;
    5. Major rehaul of Redbin format: in the context of C3, this allows the implementation of, say, an image-based development environment where the state of the interpreter can be serialized and send for troubleshooting or verification, or maybe time-traveling debugger where you can jump between the states of contract execution step-by-step;
    6. GTK backend have been brought on par with Win32 and Cocoa, so that native DApps can be truly cross-platform and bane Electron bloat from existence, or so Red/C3 pitches;
    7. The foundation for ports have been laid down, so that not only regular Red programs, but also C3 scripts can connect to the Ethereum network.

    And that doesn't cover all the internal work on tokenomics, prototyping, design discussions &c.

    Vladimir Vasilyev
    @9214

    The upshot is that C3 is an embedded domain-specific language, and that the degree of its completion is largely dependant on the evolution of the host language. Red's team is a small and dedicated one, it can't redirect all the man-power solely to C3, and has to kill not just two, but three or even five birds with one (mile)stone; we advance not directly, but laterally.

    Yet, you have the nerve to call all of that a "money grab".

    show me something about C3

    All of the bullet points that I listed above are about C3 one way or another. Besides, here is an extensive R&D I did on C3 design and dusted off the shelf.

    It's a draft, yes; it's shaggy, incomplete and cut in pieces, because some of them weren't finished, some went directly to prototyping stage, and some are too biased to share or closed under informal NDA. I'm not gonna apologize for the state of it, rather, I expect an apology from you for insulting my and other's hard work.

    it is not even exist

    It does, albeit in a private repository sitting on a back-burner... and then it doesn't. "Existing" is an essentialist category denoting a fixed entity with definite qualities and no capacity for change; Red's ontology is, on the contrary, immanent to the world of matter-energy-information flow — there's no being, only becoming of an open-source project. It's an emergent process driven by human singularities scattered across the globe (an entrainment phenomenon; boy, do I like to digress).

    And you can join us by contributing, anytime, anyplace — after all, it's not a matter of extensive (geographical distance, timezone, amount of free time alloted to you on weekends) but intensive (well-preparedness of pull-requests, frequency of helping advices, usefulness snippets) properties. Are you tired of waiting for C3 for too long? Make it come! Or plates are truly full, yet we keep piling more and more on top.

    Being a financial contributor and benefactor is hugely appreciated, but that does not give you any right to come with your rules in someone else's monastery, doing not as Romans do — attacking the project, assigning blame for the allegedly lost investment, even though no financial returns were ever promised (see p.13 about legal considerations).

    The token offering involves and relates to the development and use of experimental software and technologies that may not come to fruition or achieve the objectives specified in this white paper. The purchase of tokens represents a high risk to any contributors.

    "It's really sad", as you have put it.

    MohamedDenta
    @MohamedDenta
    Any payment gateways that accept (visa and cryptocurrency) ?
    Cong Ye
    @siriusye
    All those information just shows that C3 is stopped at an early research stage. Then it has been decided for an infinite pause. If the team needs 10 years to finish RED, then C3 will only start after that. I dont know why mentioning official blog or main technical chat, if someone search C3 there, nothing turns out. Also Vlad you refer to the white paper for the no financial returns part, why you don't refer to the road map part? If the no financial returns is true, the road map should be true too. In addition to that, create a private repo costs very little effort, we all can create as much as we can. Show something real and systemically done is a more solid prove.
    Cong Ye
    @siriusye
    i don't really want to attack the project. I don't hate RED. but sometimes the attitude of the team makes me feel really outrage. How people can really don't care? In the ICO, people contributed 28137 eth in the ICO. Back to the ICO time, it worth 40million dollars. The team just walked away with the money with an attitude of i dont want to allocate manpower for this direction. This left thousands of investigators strangling in a huge loss without any chance...
    Vladimir Vasilyev
    @9214

    @siriusye

    All those information just shows that C3 is stopped at an early research stage

    A lengthy research paper and 7 factual statements about C3 being developed laterally with each new milestone show that everything has ground to a halt before it even started? If you say so.

    If the team needs 10 years to finish RED, then C3 will only start after that

    Or the team can throw out an incomplete prototype just to satisfy your urge and move the RED price up (or not). Is that what you want?

    Show something real and systemically done is a more solid prove.

    All the blog announcements and news in the official channels are done more-or-less systematically (granted, we lack an up-to-date roadmap as @pekr noted). We also have a dedicated aggregator. Have you read them before making such claims? Also: 7 factual statements about the work being done in the last year, all of which provide direct benefits to C3. Have you read them too? If you did, then you saw everything there is to publicly show.

    If the no financial returns is true, the road map should be true too.

    Non sequitur. Re-read the p.13 and direct quotation I referred to earlier in full, without selectively skipping parts.

    i don't really want to attack the project

    Yet you do. Is that an apology for insulting other's work?

    but sometimes the attitude of the team makes me feel really outrage

    I cannot speak on behalf of the project and the Red team, but personally, I'm very, very sorry for working on Red non-stop for the last year, sometimes skipping weekends and dedicating all my spare time to contributions (roughly 3.1 out of 7 above-mentioned bullet points) — truly, one can see how such an attitude can be outraging. Friggin' nerds!

    But alas, I cannot help myself but keep pumping. So, I suggest you simply leave this room and stop getting into such a bad mood, wasting your nerve cells on peasant coders who can't make you rich in a blink of an eye.

    How people can really don't care?

    Indeed, how? That's what I keep asking myself every time I look at the similar exchanges in this room and elsewhere.

    Back to the ICO time, it worth 40million dollars.

    Yes, and then Ethereum badly crashed, and so is RED, because it's an ERC-20 token. And after that "investors" spread the liquidity of an already illiquid asset with unauthorized listings on exchanges. Let's keep our facts straight.

    The team just walked away with the money with an attitude of i dont want to allocate manpower for this direction

    That makes me think you simply dismissed all the points I've raised in the previous message, preferring instead to pose as a victim of the bad Red team, "the disingenuous thieves who left thousands of contributors without a dime after said contributors consciously made a highly risky, speculative purchase".

    Be that way.

    Gregg Irwin
    @greggirwin

    How people can really don't care? ... The team just walked away with the money with an attitude of i dont want to allocate manpower for this direction.

    Now you're speculating on what we feel and why we've made the decisions we have. Please understand that every day we show up and make the best decisions we can in where to put our time and efforts.

    To say the ICO was a cash grab, and to say we don't care, is insulting and unfounded. We started down the blockchain path after a great deal of consideration, knowing it was a new and risky area.

    @siriusye, let me ask you a few questions, if I may. How do you feel about other blockchain projects, which are run well, and which have succeeded? This can include projects like ours, or from big companies like FAANG, MS and others. Have they made blockchains a successful technology, widely adopted, and with a strong user base? Have we missed that window of opportunity? Has another project done what we set out to do, and done it successfully?

    We have been very clear, from day one of the blockchain related projects associated with Red, that we are not about the crypto craze; we are about the technology. Our stance has consistently been that our goals were long term, though we really, really hoped to keep step with our roadmap. For many reasons that hasn't happened.

    This is where we are now. And we continue to make decisions based on the long view. If you invested in MS, a FAANG company, etc. do you do so expecting to cash out in a few years and make a huge profit? That's not investing, that's gambling, and unrealistic. What happens now, with modern VC-backed companies? They raise money, burn it as fast as they can, and raise more. Either they sell out or they fail. That's the model. Maybe you like that model, but we don't.

    Is it possible we'll try to raise more money? Yes. Do we want to? No. We are doing our best to use the resources we have for long term success. If you don't like the way we're doing things, you can continue to complain, but if you really want Red (and RED) to succeed, be constructive. Offer your skills and knowledge in the blockchain dev area. Other deep core skills are needed too.

    @9214 pointed out a number of technical pieces that have been done, which are needed for C3. We didn't have a complete design 2+ years ago, so we didn't know what all the pieces would be, or the challenges. You may approach development differently, but we don't want to slam things out and compromise long term design and usability. If you follow any other Red channels, you'll see we get pushback on this and don't "move fast and break things" like other projects. That can be frustrating from the outside, and we understand that. So we take time to be visible here in the community and try to keep the lines of communication open.

    Gringo
    @15926222352
    @siriusye We support you and speak your mind. As you said above, we don't hate the red team at all, but their attitude is very angry. We just want an attitude that the team should have
    @greggirwin Keep going
    Maciej Łoziński
    @loziniak

    @9214 nice C3 state summary, thanks. It clarifies a lot. Things like this should go on a webpage. Probably not so much work, but benefits are probably worth it, just to mention increase of RED token value, which translates to faster development and pushing in direction of everyone's goals. Not to mention making my day :-)

    Besides, thanks for creating a red/REP#84 for long currency names. I postponed it couple times and finally forgot about it.

    In the meantime, ETH limitations (energy consumption, transaction costs) make some earlier use cases obsolete, and make people move to other platforms (EOS, TRON). Crypto world moves so fast, 3 years may mean a totally different landscape and a need to re-design some solutions, or even make some tech (Ethereum VM?) irrelevant.