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  • Aug 13 2016 03:24
    @PeterWAWood banned @Vexercizer
JacobGood1
@JacobGood1
maybe F#?
I cannot really think of any others honestly
Vladimir Vasilyev
@9214
Hmmm, interesting, so F# compiles to something besides IL?
JacobGood1
@JacobGood1
I know basically nothing about F# except that is a functional language that targets .net/clr
It never really interested me much
Sorry, I am not a very good source for information on hosted languages. I just know that lisp was more niche before Rich Hickey decided to make a hosted dialect.
Vladimir Vasilyev
@9214
@JacobGood1 no worries, thanks for the chat anyway!
Gregg Irwin
@greggirwin
"More niche" ...still very niche. I think Clojure is riding the FP/immutable wave, but don't see it gaining wide adoption.
JacobGood1
@JacobGood1
No one invited you! =P
That is true, in the end, who knows why a language becomes popular...
Gregg Irwin
@greggirwin
...because they look like C. ;^\
Or meet business needs.
Don Tsang
@DonaldTsang
Hi everyone!
Boleslav Březovský
@rebolek
Hi @DonaldTsang
Don Tsang
@DonaldTsang
@rebolek sorry, was busy with school.
Idea: Red having a good milestone with Anaconda's packaged functions?
https://docs.anaconda.com/anaconda/packages/py3.6_win-64/
https://docs.anaconda.com/anaconda/packages/py3.6_linux-64/
https://docs.anaconda.com/anaconda/packages/py3.6_osx-64/
(was expecting that Red can get off the ground earlier....)
Also Discord and Matrix/Riot is getting more popular than Gitter, so it would be great if Red can engage with the youth of our time there.
Boleslav Březovský
@rebolek
@DonaldTsang I don't think that moving to another chat platform is that great idea. Matrix/Riot may be popular now, but in few years something else will replace it and then what. Move again?
Don Tsang
@DonaldTsang
@rebolek Discord isn't going anywhere (it is "hip with the kids"), and Matrix can be used as a compatibility layer between different chats
Boleslav Březovský
@rebolek
Discord is a proprietary freeware... - OK, I don't have to read anything else about it
At least Matrix is open, but its API description has 170kB. Crazy.
Anyway, doing Matrix client in Red is possible. Maybe someone can try it.
Vladimir Vasilyev
@9214
@rebolek their bot was banned in our rooms some time ago.
Boleslav Březovský
@rebolek
@9214 what bot?
Vladimir Vasilyev
@9214
Boleslav Březovský
@rebolek
@9214 I see. Why?
Vladimir Vasilyev
@9214
@rebolek first time someone just started to test a bot in one of the rooms by playing ping-poing with himself, the other time IIRC it was OS flamewar.
Boleslav Březovský
@rebolek
Wow, I totally missed that
Don Tsang
@DonaldTsang
@rebolek KIds don't care about FOSS, they just care about engagement e.g. VoIP and stickers/emojis
Vladimir Vasilyev
@9214
A pity, because Red is more about open-source than stickers or whatnot.
Boleslav Březovský
@rebolek
@DonaldTsang I have no problem with that, but this is technical chat, not some game room.
Don Tsang
@DonaldTsang
@rebolek I don't think you understand what I said. It is the best way of engaging with the youth of today. Examples
Hydrus - discord.gg/vy8CUB4 https://github.com/hydrusnetwork/hydrus/releases
ShokoAnime - discord.gg/vpeHDsg https://github.com/ShokoAnime
WhatAnime - discord.gg/K9jn6Kj https://github.com/soruly/whatanime.ga
Nori - discord.gg/3DTNcHu https://github.com/tjg1/nori/releases
@9214 I think it is a generations thing
Vladimir Vasilyev
@9214

I don't think you understand what I said

I don't think you understand what you are saying either. Comparing programming language with hobbyst's media apps, and asking to throw community of knowledge and practice that surrounds it into hipster (or otaku?) moshpit. That's sound more like bad PR manager's prank.

Don Tsang
@DonaldTsang
@9214 What I am saying is "get them when they are young, so that they will stick to it in the long term", and I don't think it is hipster as it is "of our generation". If being pro is important, I would say Slack or Gitter can do it, but the engagement would be lowered.
Don Tsang
@DonaldTsang
Take this for example https://discord.me/page/coding https://discord.me/page/geekhub https://discord.me/page/coding-core
(the community of programmers or would-be programmers are huge)
Vladimir Vasilyev
@9214
Spreading community across multiple communication channels won't solve any of our problems. They require constant monitoring, moderation, promotion and presence of community leaders - all the things that core team cannot afford time and resources for, as there are more important things to do.
Don Tsang
@DonaldTsang
It is one things to get things done, and other to attract people to the software. Some questions to think about: How is Go (2009), Rust (2010), Nim (2008), (all three are Java/C-level), Scala (2004), Elixir (2011) (both functional) more popular than Red (in terms of Github stars or RedMonk metrics) http://sogrady-media.redmonk.com/sogrady/files/2018/08/lang.rank_.618-1.png
Vladimir Vasilyev
@9214
Derailing discussion into language flamewar (or pushing subjective comparison metrics of completely different projects, two which are courtesy of Google and Mozilla) doesn't give you any credit, I believe you know that. Red is not a software, it's a toolchain for software creation. And it needs to be fully functional to attract people who will use it en masse.
Gregg Irwin
@greggirwin
This should move to red/chit-chat to continue. I'll respond there.
Vladimir Vasilyev
@9214
Are there any Racketeers here who would like to chime in in this subbredit? @JacobGood1 ?
"Contrast Red with Racket?"
JacobGood1
@JacobGood1
I am more familiar with Clojure, Common Lisp, and Shen, I never really dabbled in Racket. Everyone of those languages, even though they are all Lisps, treat meta-programming differently. In any case, I have nothing to add to the book you wrote for a response =).
I really need to do some red programming again. I have been busy in a Smalltalk derivative, SkookumScript, doing game development. At this point, I am convinced that delimited continuations (fancy talk for coroutines), are the ultimate imperative abstraction, like monads are for functional languages.
JacobGood1
@JacobGood1
By the way, there is an interesting implementation of common lisp called clasp, where the goal is seamless interoperability with c++. Here is a recent talk on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbdXeRBbgDM
Vladimir Vasilyev
@9214
@JacobGood1 I haven't grokked continuations yet.
JacobGood1
@JacobGood1
Someone of your capability would most likely be able to get a good grasp on them in a short time, if you had the desire to do so.
Something like parse would be relatively easy (in the right context) to create with DC.
Vladimir Vasilyev
@9214
@JacobGood1 I get that continuation represent "the rest of computation", and can follow code written in CP, but not sure what you mean by direct continuation. In fact, continuation is just a function that accepts the computed result, with a caveat that it doesn't leave an activation frame on evaluation stack - Scheme people, who are fond of continuations, don't mention that, because they the take tail-call optimization for granted :wink: CPS itself is just a restricted and quirky version of lambda calculus. There's also this book from Appel, which is a bit over my head. Anyway, off-topic.
Gregg Irwin
@greggirwin
I think that's still on topic for this group.
Vladimir Vasilyev
@9214
OK. At some point there was a discussion about continuations in Rebol mailing list, and why they were removed in Rebol2. You still can write in CPS though, except that stack grows and it can get tricky without lexical scope (or closure!).
Vladimir Vasilyev
@9214
I think this topic will get more interesting after introduction of stack native.
https://github.com/red/red/issues/3552#issuecomment-447326519
Vladimir Vasilyev
@9214
Holy cow :exclamation: :cow:
JacobGood1
@JacobGood1

Stack sounds interesting... Yea, there are some crazy papers/lectures written on DC that convince one that it is a truly powerful way to program. I meant to say earlier, that the reason I mentioned them is because Skookum basically built a language that focuses on using them.

I like how you mentioned that one must know blub in order to make a fair comparison with blah, in my view, two languages that focus on meta-programming cannot be compared since they can be bent into any language. Thus, as you demonstrated, the only way to really compare them is by their implementation, the underlying technology that empowers them to complete various tasks. Red should be quite compelling in the future as it fulfills its many promises to be a great language implementation.