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swthornton
@swthornton
Hi, what is the scope of the reactors? Would it be possible to have several applications on different servers with reactors that react to changes in the other apps?
Gregg Irwin
@greggirwin

Reactors are currently local: https://doc.red-lang.org/en/reactivity.html

How to scale and distribute them is a great thought experiment, which will also depend on the actor/concurrency model. I like the idea of reactive tuplespaces myself.

swthornton
@swthornton
Yes, would be pretty amazing.
FLuX LoOP
@x8x
Been looking at 7GUIs, thanks, I'll stay with red πŸ˜‚
FLuX LoOP
@x8x
Why did other languages got so cumbersome? Did they not care about KISS? Is it because they are developed in a hurry by multiple people? I guess doing redbol for some times makes it difficult to look at other languages.
Adrian Sampaleanu
@asampal
:point_up: May 3, 2017 3:19 PM @greggirwin are you thinking something like Eve?
Gregg Irwin
@greggirwin
Not really @asampal, though there are similarities with blackboard systems if Eve grows remote data space capabilities. I don't see it as a relational system though, just generative atemporal communication. It's framed, in my mind, by what I've done before. Where Linda tuples could be matched based on exact values or placeholders, I used parse for matching, so rules can be arbitrarily complex.
swthornton
@swthornton
I think eve is attempting to become ubicutous with a wider audience, suitable for programmers and non-programmers. Like everyone can use Excel, they don't need to be an accountant or programmer. I think the hurdle with Red becoming as widely used as that is its heritage of coming from a scripting environment with a very terse language, its hard to digest initially, I think the language could expand and become more self explanatory now it can be compiled.
swthornton
@swthornton
Ubiquitous even 😁
Maxim V
@maximvl
with EVE I don't feel like I can write any kind of application, like console utility or native gui app or a web server
their primary target is WEB, at least it feels so
while Red is more barebone and we can create things like EVE as well
swthornton
@swthornton
True, they are very different beasts! I suppose we may ask how many people create servers and how many people create business applications.
Maxim V
@maximvl
@swthornton we can, just I as a programmer would like to have more powerful tool
others may prefer different things
swthornton
@swthornton
Agreed
Gregg Irwin
@greggirwin

Different beasts indeed. And whether Eve will succeed is not a given. Spreadsheets are a huge win, because they're easy to reason about, especially if you're familiar with the domain. Eve needs to magically produce expected results for non-programmers in the same way, from a simple UI. Otherwise Prolog would have won long ago.

Red isn't meant for non-programmers. However, programmers come in shades of gray. Red is very accessible to casual programmers, as BASIC and VB have been. And also, though we have some thought to apply in the presentation, like Logo. What Red promises, in one narrow view, is the ability for each level of competency in programming to build tools and share with other levels, without resorting to different languages.

Petr Krenzelok
@pekr
I still remember how nice it was using Amos BASIC on Amiga. Feels a bit like a VID dialect .... http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-IJRERF23ZlE/UAmHY40tBTI/AAAAAAAAAZg/nkDRJi4xuZg/s1600/amiga-amos-01.png
swthornton
@swthornton
@greggirwin Agreed, Reds attractant for me is the full stack, I'm sick of learning​ different platforms, whatever or wherever I'm asked to write something I want to say yes! I used Rebol a while ago but still find it difficult to follow some of the Red logic, especially with documentation missing.
David Murphy
@dnmurphy
@swthornton same with me, especially as I use Mac and many things that work in windows don't work in mac as yet, still its getting there
swthornton
@swthornton
@dnmurphy yes great help on here luckily especially @greggirwin 😊
Gregg Irwin
@greggirwin

For those new to Red, does confusion come from:

  • Trying to understand how Red works internally?
  • Mapping what you know of other langs to Red concepts? i.e. it doesn't "work like X".
  • Red not doing what you expect?
  • Something else.

Does red-by-example.org help?

David Murphy
@dnmurphy
red-by-example looks useful but I have never seen that before your mention. For me Red simply uses an obscure syntax and its difficult to fully get my head around it in the absence of effective documentation. Reading examples helps but sometimes it's extremely difficult to figure out down to each element what it is doing and then extrapolate that to doing other code - the nested blocks. I think it just needs better documentation to help beginners from other languages, bear in mind that many who pick it up will be hobbyists and not focused entirely on Red itself in their early usage
swthornton
@swthornton
@greggirwin For me it's I'm so used to using curly brackets languages c# et al, that i struggle with what can go on one line or if it needs to be in a block, i also think when you do examples you may put - parse a b left r just x but not y. This is unintelligible to us c# guys 😁
Vladimir Vasilyev
@9214

@greggirwin

  • Personally I'm interested in internals (prefer bottom-up approach in studying) and lack of documentation with books makes things all cryptic.
  • I don't "know" any language (and by knowing I mean understanding all shenanigans with ins and outs + working with it at least 2 years), though I can call myself a seasoned Schemer. That means I don't have any expectations or solid concepts... but "there's no spoon scope" mantra still haunts me!
  • Sometimes it doesn't, but that comes from 1st point. E.g. knowing what's a series!and how to deal with it (I'm looking at you copy), what's a word!, what's a context, bindology, etc.
  • Maybe it's a language barrier (I'm not a native English speaker) and lack of experience with programming overall. I mean, all this cool talks about R/S stuff and macros with dialects, sometimes I just feel myself like a puny first grader, in a good way. There's lots of stuff to learn in CS field and in Redbol land, it's just paralyzing.

I used r-b-e a few times before I discovered what function ;)

iArnold
@iArnold
There is so much useful documentation http://www.rebol.com/docs/docs.html
Especially this http://www.rebol.com/docs/core23/rebolcore.html
swthornton
@swthornton
@iArnold is Red not starting to move away from Rebol now? I'm very interested in react but I don't believe that's in Rebol.
Vladimir Vasilyev
@9214
@swthornton same here, Red slowly but steadily starts to mature and move away from R2, sure there're still some things in common, but it all feels like a dusty heritage
plus all valuable docs and articles are scarce and decentralized
swthornton
@swthornton
@9214 yes I'm trying to keep myself to Red docs, to avoid me getting even more confused 😱
David Murphy
@dnmurphy
I shoudl also say I work on mac osx, which is behind windows RED, so that slows things for me considerably. Still, I admire what the team are doing and there is a clear sense of going somewhere compared to the Rebol groups. Red excites me and Rebol saddens me now
And the blog article on the homepage, and various examples.
Vladimir Vasilyev
@9214
There's Red github wiki, Red main site, and Rebol wikibooks, and rebol dot com documentation, @nickantonaccio guides, @rebolek blog, tons of Rebol blogs, book from @PeterWAWood and another from Victor Pavlu, red-by-example... gosh!
swthornton
@swthornton
@iArnold yes I've used that, react has that many uses it makes my head hurt, brilliant.
iArnold
@iArnold
Well MacOS was merged into master branch so most of it will be possible using latest version, not release.
Vladimir Vasilyev
@9214
IMO we should start gathering all dark and murky secrets in one place, creating The Red Book or something. 0.7.0 is arount the corner and we should be prepared for fresh blood and whole evangelizing mumbo-jumbo.
swthornton
@swthornton
Think we're on the wrong thread for this stuff, perhaps should be on the welcome thread.
Vladimir Vasilyev
@9214
well, one could say that it's about language and community organisation ;)
swthornton
@swthornton
Think the official docs should be pushed for next release.
@9214 True 😬
Alexander Baggett
@AlexanderBaggett

For those new to Red, does confusion come from:

  • Trying to understand how Red works internally?
  • Mapping what you know of other langs to Red concepts? i.e. it doesn't "work like X".
  • Red not doing what you expect?
  • Something else.

Does red-by-example.org help?

@greggirwin , Red-by-example does help quite a bit. It would be cool if it was a bit more complete.

R cqls
@rcqls
@iArnold :clap:
Greg T
@gltewalt
@AlexanderBaggett It's the first three bullet points
Alexander Baggett
@AlexanderBaggett
I was actually quoting greg from earlier. The chat formatting didn't work out quite right.
Greg T
@gltewalt
Err, sorry @greggirwin
Ashley
@Dobeash
To address the "it doesn't work like X" issue would it be helpful to have a table mapping "in C you do this", with, "which looks like this in Red"?
swthornton
@swthornton
@Dobeash πŸ‘
Greg T
@gltewalt
Problem with that is that there's usually no direct comparison (unless it's Red/System)