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##### Activity
• 10:29

qtxie on atomic

FEAT: adds a FIFO MPMC queue in… (compare)

• Aug 23 22:24
9214 updated the wiki
• Aug 23 15:05

dockimbel on atomic

FEAT: adds support for system/a… (compare)

• Aug 23 13:40

dockimbel on atomic

FEAT: improved the implementati… (compare)

• Aug 23 12:52
dockimbel commented #3991
• Aug 23 12:27
9214 commented #3991
• Aug 23 12:13
planetsizecpu commented #3991
• Aug 23 12:12
planetsizecpu commented #3991
• Aug 23 11:18
dockimbel commented #3991
• Aug 23 10:14

qtxie on atomic

TEST: add some failed cases in … (compare)

• Aug 23 10:06

qtxie on atomic

TESTS: add test for CAS operati… (compare)

• Aug 23 09:22

qtxie on atomic

TESTS: add some tests for atomi… (compare)

• Aug 22 21:26

dockimbel on atomic

FEAT: adds get-word support for… (compare)

• Aug 22 21:00

dockimbel on atomic

FEAT: adds support for system/a… (compare)

• Aug 22 17:48

dockimbel on atomic

FEAT: preliminary support for a… (compare)

• Aug 22 15:51

dockimbel on atomic

FIX: removes some unused local … (compare)

• Aug 22 15:20

dockimbel on atomic

FEAT: adds support for system/c… (compare)

• Aug 22 10:35
bitbegin assigned #4004
• Aug 22 10:35
bitbegin unassigned #4004
@9214 why do you think only one thing will change?
@9214
@nedzadarek look, if you don't need it, if you don't understand it, if you're somehow convinced that it's all temporary and will pass - when don't use it and ignore everything. I can't care less. But hiding all of these fundamentals and refusing to give them to newcomers because "oh it's so complex (it's not) and scary (no, it's beautiful), let's pretend that it's something what it's not" is a double game.
@9214
Cells won't go anywhere, words/context indirect relationship won't go anywhere, how symbol lookup and nodes with buffers work won't change either, though, all of that might be optimized (e.g. increase cell size to support 64-bit, or support of UTF-8 caching). This is the crux of execution model.
@9214 it's not that I don't understand it. I find it pretty straightforward (aka beautiful). I've been playing with the red for so long but I haven't written code where I need to know red-context! is based on symbols with IDs and values. It could be hash table and all of my codes would work. Have you used that information somewhere?
@9214

it's not that I don't understand it

Interesting, but roughly an hour ago you didn't even know what a symbol table is.

I've been playing with the red for so long but I haven't written code where I need to know

I doubt you really played with Red then. Again, you don't need it - you don't use it. You feel comfortable without understanding how everything works under the hood - cool, lucky you. I use this knowledge on a daily basis, and leveraged above mentioned mechanics in two projects, while you do just fine without them. Our evidences are anecdotal. So, what's your point?

@9214
Because, following your logic, we shouldn't explain a person how to drive a car, because car implementation may change (e.g. right-hand versus left-hand drive).
Greg T
@gltewalt
I think it’s more like, “You don’t need to know how the engine works to drive a car”.
That works most of the time, until it doesn’t
@9214
And boiling explanation down to a fluff piece like "you shouldn't know that, it's all magical and will take care of itself", IMO, disrespects questioner and disregards curiosity.
BeardPower
@BeardPower
@9214 Word!
@9214
@gltewalt exactly. Your care broke, you open the hood and start tinkering... or not, if you don't know how everything works. Your "variable" behaves weirdly, and your "array" refuses to re-initialize itself. You apply "irrelevant" knowledge about inner details and fix it in a blink of an eye... or not, if you don't know how everything works. Then all you can do is run to /help room and beg old grumpy druids to assist you.
Person can't write code confidently if he doesn't have the right mental model. And right mental model can be acquired only by looking at unobscured and clearly explained inner workings.
ne1uno
@ne1uno
damm client insists on making a paste. sorry.
might help if a few red/rebol devs annotate a piece of code line by line so we can see how people think?
A: 1
do people say A equals oneor maybeassign one to A and does it matter.
BeardPower
@BeardPower
1 is bound to A.
It's like data-base bindings.

Interesting, but roughly an hour ago you didn't even know what a symbol table is.

I might not remember it (you mentioned it in the talk with me after all). The code, the image is super easy to understand.

My point is that you don't need that kind of info in order to use a programming language.

we shouldn't explain a person how to drive a car

But you don't explain an user a structure of a fuel, how the photons go through material of car's lights (sorry, I used the google translator - I'm not sure about proper terms).

"you shouldn't know that, it's all magical and will take care of itself", IMO, disrespects questioner and disregards curiosity.

It's matter of efficiency. I don't need things I won't use in tutorials. I can look for it later.

I use this knowledge on a daily basis

Can I see an example?

@9214

My point is that you don't need that kind of info in order to use a programming language.

... in order to use a programming language fully, in 100% of what it offers to you, and in order to stand on your own feet instead of relying on others.

But you don't explain an user a structure of a fuel

No, but I make sure that he can get that info if he deems it as important. And I make sure that he can get it right.

It's matter of efficiency

Oh, so dismissing newcomer's question is now efficient? Cool.

Can I see an example?

Boleslav Březovský
@rebolek
Guys, don't you what /chit-chat is for?
After checking your project I still don't see need for that info. They are just "normal bindings". If want to continue this talk (I guess not), just @ me at /chit-chat.
@9214
An interesting case of selective myopia.
GiuseppeChillemi
@GiuseppeChillemi
Hi, I have a bunch of notes in ASCII text and I need RED to organize them.
My basic need is to paste them on a TEXT AREA, highlight some text either manually or via RED and then CUT IT and PASTE to another text area hitting a button.
I don't know if CUT/PASTE and highlight are implemented and how to use this feature.
Note: I suppose CUT and PASTE could be obtained having a starting and ending point of the higlighted text and then appending to another one...
I need help.
@9214
Hi @GiuseppeChillemi. area face has selected facet, which tracks selected portion of text as a pair! value. Copypaste is just Ctrl+C / Ctrl+V, unless I misunderstood something.
Let's move to /help room then.
Gregg Irwin
@greggirwin

@9214, stand down. @nedzadarek is not wrong here. I didn't know exactly what you meant when you started talking about symbol tables. You know why? Because I don't remember ever using that term when talking about Red contexts. Most importantly, you need to focus on the topic, and not attack the person. If I were @nedzadarek, I would have taken personal offense at some things you have said. That is not how we want our community to be.

I agree with @rebolek that this could move to chit-chat, but if we can keep it civil, and try to make progress rather than just trying to be right, we can keep it here. Other new people may chime in with thoughts which will help. For that to happen, they have to know they won't be criticized for their views.

@9214
@greggirwin I'm sorry, but how am I supposed to react to a person who first asks for an explanation of a term, and then dismisses a given explanation as "too detailed", saying that a half-baked one would suffice for everyone, basing this claim on, as you love to say, anecdotal evidence?
I am not wrong here either, and I believe you know that.
Gregg Irwin
@greggirwin

... in order to use a programming language fully, in 100% of what it offers to you, and in order to stand on your own feet instead of relying on others.

Not everyone needs to use a language fully, let's be clear on that. Most won't. Just like most people use <N% of features in Word or Excel. That said, you're right, if you only want programmers writing tools for other programmers, and trying to impress them. That's not our goal with Red.

We can argue about how to explain things, what to explain, and who needs to know about various features. But first we should see what we agree about. Ultimately, it's Nenad's call, but we can gather data for him.

I encourage everyone here to answer the following questions, or comment with your own thoughts. Feel free to reply privately to me here or via email. Your input is important, if you want Red to consider your needs.

1) Do you consider yourself a programmer?
2) Do you consider yourself a software engineer?
3) Do you solve business problems with software?
4) What kind of problems do you solve?
5) What other languages have you used?
6) What is your favorite language, and why?
7) Is "progammer" or "developer" in your job title?
8) Do you think Red should be for "everyone" (e.g., like Visual Basic)?
9) Do you want to use Red for real work, or just fun?
10) What software do you pay for?

how am I supposed to react to a person who first asks for an explanation of a term, and then dismisses a given explanation as "too detailed", saying that a half-baked one would suffice for everyone, basing this claim on, as you love to say, anecdotal evidence?

Look at your explanation and see if their claim is valid in any way. See where you went wrong. Try to look at it from their perspective.

Gregg Irwin
@greggirwin
To build on @gltewalt's car analogy, which I agree with, can we, and should we require every Red user to be a mechanic (See Q8 above)? Or is it OK that some people are just drivers, some will run their car with no oil in it, until the engine seizes; others will learn to change their own oil, etc.? It breaks down with modern cars, because they have made it so normal people can't do the basic things anymore. Oil, maybe, but spark plugs are a royal pain to reach now without special tools, and do people even gap them anymore, or has technology eliminated that need?
A lot of people wrote dBase programs without understanding relational theory, or even anything about how it worked under the hood. Same for VB. With a minimal understanding of branching logic, people could write useful programs. I have seen some terrifying examples in my career. I've seen equally terrifying examples of things written by professional programmers with CS degrees. Maybe those are more frightening, because at least the first type solved some problem, while the latter often failed to work at all, from a business perspective.
@9214

should we require every Red user to be a mechanic (See Q8 above)?

And should we treat every newcomer as if he doesn't want to be a mechanic?

No offense, but your "we want Red to be the next-gen VB" doesn't resonate with me at all.
Envisioned Red 2.0 is anything but VB, in my point of view, and more of a power-user thing, in the vein of Carl's "Rebol is not for everyone" blog post.
Gregg Irwin
@greggirwin
No offense taken. Show us where paying customers are, and we'll look in that direction.
Toomas Vooglaid
@toomasv

I encourage everyone here to answer the following questions...

1) Do you consider yourself a programmer?

Nowadays, thanks to Red, I'm starting to consider myself somewhat of a programmer, although without proper basic training, discovering thing while going on. I used to program occasionally, tinkering with different langs, as a hobby, and did more of SQL on my work.

2) Do you consider yourself a software engineer?

Not really. May be an application developer on a nanoscopic scale, if some of my Red-projects would count as applications.

3) Do you solve business problems with software?

Not yet :) (Well, I used to, with SQL)

4) What kind of problems do you solve?

Trying to build some little graphical apps which might be useful for beginners to start off.

5) What other languages have you used?

SQL, PHP, HTML, CSS, Javascript, Bash, Python, REBOL, Mozart, Clips, OWL, SPARQL in diminishing order, some of these years ago, some more recently.

6) What is your favorite language, and why?

Red. Need I specify why? :)

7) Is "progammer" or "developer" in your job title?

I don't have job title. But if I had I think it would.

8) Do you think Red should be for "everyone" (e.g., like Visual Basic)?

In a way, yes. Even if they may be interested in (or need only) some high-level DSL, which would be a special purpose dialect of Red. Others may need to build simple applications with Red proper, still others will delve deeper into Red philosopy and try to master all it's aspects, some again developing on system level. Hey, Red is fullstack after all, dare we say it is fullstack in its users range also?

9) Do you want to use Red for real work, or just fun?

Both.

10) What software do you pay for?

Windows (not personally), some graphics apps, anti-virus, domain/virtual machine provider.

Gregg Irwin
@greggirwin

Thanks Toomas!

dare we say it is fullstack in its users range also?

Oh man, how did I not see that coming? :^)

Or, rather, how did I not think of that myself!
Toomas Vooglaid
@toomasv
:smile:
Jose Luis
@planetsizecpu

So, lights on:

1) Do you consider yourself a programmer?
Yes, from 1989
2) Do you consider yourself a software engineer?
Not really, but have studied that matter
3) Do you solve business problems with software?
Not today, I have did from 1989-2013
4) What kind of problems do you solve?
At times PMS (hotel management software), later hardware/construction stores management
5) What other languages have you used?
Basic, Cobol, 4Gl FDS/Sculptor, JavaSE, C
6) What is your favorite language, and why?
Red of course, because of human oriented aspects, from a while other langs don't attract me
7) Is "progammer" or "developer" in your job title?
Not today, but it was
8) Do you think Red should be for "everyone" (e.g., like Visual Basic)?
Yes, some people who don't want to master in programming, but only solve their problem
9) Do you want to use Red for real work, or just fun?
Both
10) What software do you pay for?
Only for windows

Hi. I can't compile "test-wpf.red" in Red sources red\red\bridges\dotnet\.
The error message is :
-=== Red Compiler 0.6.3 ===-

Compiling D:\Temp\red\red\bridges\dotnet\test-wpf.red ...
Compiling libRedRT...
...compilation time : 1621 ms

Compiling to native code...
...compilation time : 47266 ms
...output file size : 933888 bytes
...output file      : D:\Temp\red\red\bridges\dotnet\libRedRT.dll

...compilation time : 195 ms

Target: MSDOS

Compiling to native code...
*** Compilation Error: undefined symbol: red/unicode/to-utf16-len
*** in file: %/D/Temp/red/red/bridges/dotnet/test-wpf.red
*** in function: exec/clr-search-class
*** at line: 28
*** near: [unicode/to-utf16-len as red-string! name :len false
ret: 0
]`