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Gregg Irwin
@greggirwin
@rebolek, yes, we think that should work, if we're done in Prague on 02-Nov. Shouldn't take long to get to Brno or something, yes?
Boleslav Březovský
@rebolek
@greggirwin no, it's bit over 2 hours. I also may try to ask cz.nic for their conference room in Prague, but I can't promise that.
Oldes Huhuman
@Oldes
@greggirwin I'm very interested, but unfortunately 1.-4.11.2018 I have a meet-up on north of the Czech Republic near Poland border (Orlické Mountains). It was planned since May of this year, so impossible to change it.
Max
@moliad
@greggirwin we'll start to look into it and we'll see how our visions align... at least the low level part of it will most probably be aligned.
Gregg Irwin
@greggirwin
Thanks @rebolek and @moliad. @Oldes, we would love to have you there, but understand on plans.
Nenad Rakocevic
@dockimbel
Anyone who can come to Czech is welcome to join us for that mini RedCon. ;-)
Vladimir Vasilyev
@9214
@dockimbel @greggirwin if you're settled on this, perhaps it's worth to post an invitation on Red website?
Nenad Rakocevic
@dockimbel
@9214 We just need to confirm the date(s) and place first.
Gregg Irwin
@greggirwin
@moliad, after some chat here, our recommendation is that you move forward and build what you need. We'll have to align later and see what works from the inside out. Things to consider:
  • Incremental module compilation. i.e. only recompile a module if the source changes.
  • Linking static modules, in addition to dynamic loading.
  • Each module may have its own symbol table.
  • Package management system.
Dave Andersen
@dander

1) Do you consider yourself a programmer?

yes

2) Do you consider yourself a software engineer?

I'm not convinced that software development is engineering, but I do like design

3) Do you solve business problems with software?

yes

4) What kind of problems do you solve?

automation of video production workflows (lots of plumbing), installers, build automation, trying not to be overtaken by complexity (yes, I think that is a real problem that needs to be solved)

5) What other languages have you used?

Java, Pascal, C, C#, Lisp, Python, Javascript, Powershell, SQL, XSL, Human Resource Machine

6) What is your favorite language, and why?

Red! It's so beautiful and elegant, simple and powerful. I still like C# actually, but learning Red has made me a better C# programmer too.

7) Is "progammer" or "developer" in your job title?

no, but "software engineer" actually is

8) Do you think Red should be for "everyone" (e.g., like Visual Basic)?

I think it's like "Anyone can cook" from Ratatouille - Not everyone can become a great artist; but a great artist can come from anywhere. I think that temperament has something to do with it. I would hate to see Red dumbed down in any way to draw in more users, but I think that if it continues to strive for goals like simplicity, clarity, power... those all broaden the kind of audience that it would appeal to.

9) Do you want to use Red for real work, or just fun?

both

10) What software do you pay for?

OS, games, dev tools (I don't, but my company does)

Gregg Irwin
@greggirwin
I clearly need to check out humanresourcemachine, and your answer to #8 is great. Thanks @dander.
Dave Andersen
@dander
@greggirwin It's a really fun, cute game. I recommend it.
lepinekong
@lepinekong_twitter
Red site only publishes sha256 for the whole red.exe example sha256: 105d0f7b009a802a35a636c5dbedc69e89477fd62b6ba77690845fd78d436171 whereas it produces other exe in programdata: anti-virus check also these exes and create alerts on them.
ne1uno
@ne1uno
could an un-modified executable produce rogue modified dependent files?
would the alerts be stopped with file hashes for the dll & consoles?
probably needs to be instructions to exclude that directory
Vladimir Vasilyev
@9214
@greggirwin also check out Zachtronics.
Oldes Huhuman
@Oldes
Hey... Human R. M.... I should finish my mission too:) I don't remember on which floor I ended and why.
Gregg Irwin
@greggirwin
I do remember seeing Zachtronics. Still, many months later, haven't made time to try it.
Alexander Veledzimovich
@schwarzbox
1) Do you consider yourself a programmer?
Yes. I am junior. Start to code 2 years ago.
2) Do you consider yourself a software engineer?
Not yet. But hope that it happen in future.
3) Do you solve business problems with software?
Not yet. I just study.
4) What kind of problems do you solve?
Made simple scripts for automatization, 2d games, try to make useful tools for creating application
5) What other languages have you used?
Python, Lua, C
6) What is your favorite language, and why?
For now I very like Lua conception and I can feel myself more confident with Lua because I am try to work with every function from std library. It is small and powerful. Also I like C, but I am only start to play with them.
And of course I am very impressed by Red philosophy.
7) Is "progammer" or "developer" in your job title?
Not yet. I am amateur.
8) Do you think Red should be for "everyone" (e.g., like Visual Basic)?
I think that, if Red 1.0 can work stable with all platforms and stay with so human friendly semantic and syntax it just happen.
9) Do you want to use Red for real work, or just fun?
I try. Today I write in my "todo" list new entry: "build application which convert images to .icns and .ico files". Also I wanna try to use Red for games.
10) What software do you pay for?
Mobile apps.
Alexander Baggett
@AlexanderBaggett

1) Do you consider yourself a programmer?
Yes

2) Do you consider yourself a software engineer?
Yes

3) Do you solve business problems with software?
Yes

4) What kind of problems do you solve?
Creating a reporting engine, maintaining data integrations, building, maintaining, and expanding websites.

5) What other languages have you used?
C#, F#, javascript, Typescript, SQL, C++

6) What is your favorite language, and why?
C#, but only because I can do whatever I need to easily. I would prefer a more advanced language like F# or Red if I could fully grasp the finer details. The difference between intermediate and expert in these languages is an ocean's distance. So many subtle features are under-documented with overly trivial examples that don't encourage experimentation. So many features either make reference to either a math course I never took or another programming language, e.g. if you took the time to learn that other language then this feature will feel right at home for you, so we won't document it very much because we assume you already know it. That kind of logic does piss me off. Red system is a great example, It assumes I already know operating system specific things. At the system level you have to know OS specific stuff to do anything. Nothing in Red System's documentation teaches this. Document all of your language features as if this was the person's first programming language! Make it easier for me to cross those oceans, and I would gladly have Red as my main go to language for any desktop or data oriented project. Add some web dev features and I would use it for anything.

7) Is "programmer" or "developer" in your job title?
Yes

8) Do you think Red should be for "everyone" (e.g., like Visual Basic)?
If you can do it in a way that doesn't compromise advanced features, then yes. But really its a great language, if you can stay great and find ways to attract more people, that would be ideal.

9) Do you want to use Red for real work, or just fun?
Right now I use it for fun. I have also used it just a bit for UI prototyping . If I actually owned my own company, then maybe for work.

10) What software do you pay for?
Graphics generation software (Spiral Graphics Genetica and other seamless texture generation tools), music creation software, workflow software, games, IDE's, productivity tools, caching tools, and cloud infrastructure and management tools.

lucindamichele
@lucindamichele
@AlexanderBaggett bring up a point I'm curious about: "Document all of your language features as if this was the person's first programming language!" Would this be helpful to many people? Is Red an appropriate point of entry for those seeking to learn their first language? For someone who has never learned OS-specific things, will learning Red System be useful? Did most language learners--of any programming language--enter the field by needing to use it for OSs? If it were me learning a language for the first time, I'd want the language to do simple, concrete things like make a simple notepad app for my phone, or a silly graphics editor like Paint. Because that's a great start for a beginner to visualize and understand. Eventually, as my repertoire expanded, I'd need to get closer to system level, to make the more advanced and specific specs a reality, or as I started to need to program tools that managed my more beginner-level programs.
On the other hand, I'm a huge fan of highly specific and multimedia instruction that doesn't assume the learner's level of ability.
Alexander Baggett
@AlexanderBaggett
To you first question, I feel it would. The fewer the assumptions you make about a language learner's ability the better. I would like to turn your second question on it's head. I feel with the right documentation Red could be someone's first language. But it depends on how you document and market it, and if that is a direction you guys want to take this language. But you are in a position where it could be a good first programming language depending on how you approach it. @lucindamichele , I already know the high-level stuff, (as-in Red itself) and other languages like C# and so on. But let's say I wanted to learn some system level programming with Red via Red System. I would have to look at both Red System's documentation, and maybe some C++ books/documentation that target specific OS's. That's not fun. If Red System is next the language for system's programming why should I be reading documentation written for other programming languages to figure out what I need to do? At the very least it would be helpful for links to OS specific API documentation even if it's documented for C++ readers.
PeterWAWood
@PeterWAWood

@AlexanderBaggett Would you be prepared to pay for a book/documentation that taught systems programming with Red/System?

If so, roughly, how much?

Alexander Baggett
@AlexanderBaggett
Yes, 30-45 USD.
yvendruscolo
@yvendruscolo
I have no knowledge of systems programming. I like Red itself very much. I would invest 30 USD in such a physical book once Red/System fully releases
viayuve
@viayuve
Around $100 for paper book around $50 for pdf and epub
Gregg Irwin
@greggirwin
Thanks for the input and responses, to both Alexanders!
Jose Luis
@planetsizecpu
I am more in the range of @AlexanderBaggett, but I would happily pay for the book 😃
BeardPower
@BeardPower
Kernel development with R/S.... ;-)
Vladimir Vasilyev
@9214
@BeardPower that's mah boi!
Maciej Łoziński
@loziniak
An OS written in R/S would be a fun project :-)
BeardPower
@BeardPower
I'm currently working on one :-)
Nikita Korotkin
@TheHowdy_gitlab
@BeardPower Amazing. Can it be found somewhere e.g. on github? Or will u publish it when ur ready?
BeardPower
@BeardPower

@BeardPower Amazing. Can it be found somewhere e.g. on github? Or will u publish it when ur ready?

I just started on a hello world and planning on running a blog about it.

rtTrump ©
@rtTrump_twitter
I bought into RED when I saw some plans for lots of ethereum subroutines or libraries being emphasized. I saw your survey above, haven't answered it but might.
BuilderGuy1
@BuilderGuy1
@BeardPower I find your project VERY exciting !!! I've been dissatisfied with "modern" computing for quite some time. It's become painfully obvious that Walled Gardens and Spy Platforms are being handed off as "modern computing". I have been researching the computing innovations from the 90's b/c that's the last time innovation has really happened in this industry. I'm specifically interested in Document Centric computing. App centric computing, in my opinion, is inside-out. When the data (document) becomes the focus, the entire system becomes simpler, smaller and easier to secure. This kind of system also becomes a computing playground rather than silos of functionality and data. As part of my explorations, I have thought of Red. It has many of the essential pieces required for such a system already built-in. Unfortunately I'm not even close to having the skills to implement such a thing... I look forward to reading your blog :-)
BeardPower
@BeardPower
@BuilderGuy1
Absolutely. We stick with soft- and hardware which was invented 30years ago. It's an experiment on how R/S can be used for creating a Kernel/OS from scratch and trying out new ideas invented in the last years but did not get much out of the academic field.
JacobGood1
@JacobGood1
Yea, a red system book, that is another thing I would pay for. The most amount of time I have spent in a low level language was with red system, I think I spend about 3 weeks or so with it.
Alexander Baggett
@AlexanderBaggett
That's really cool guys :) Yeah red/system book would be really good. If anything I would use it for game development or designing graphics editing applications.
Alexander Baggett
@AlexanderBaggett
Of course there are other ways to use that knowledge, but those are the ways I am most interested in.
gshields
@gshields
1) Do you consider yourself a programmer?
no
2) Do you consider yourself a software engineer?
yes
3) Do you solve business problems with software?
yes
4) What kind of problems do you solve?
Integrations, ETL, Builds, Testing
5) What other languages have you used?
Cobol,PL1,C,C++,SQL,Perl,Bash,Javascipt,PHP,HTML,XML,Psyco/PyPy,Ruby,C#,VB,Python,Go
6) What is your favorite language, and why?
Go, simple and fast
7) Is "programmer" or "developer" in your job title?
too many hats ->DEVOPS
8) Do you think Red should be for "everyone" (e.g., like Visual Basic)?
yes
9) Do you want to use Red for real work, or just fun?
research for now, would like to replace all the glue langages, with red
10) What software do you pay for?
system utilies, OS, Devtools, books when open source does not fit the job
lucindamichele
@lucindamichele
Thank you @gshields!
Quick update: Our Fearless Leaders are handling Important Red Business today, and as such the Weekly Update is a bit delayed. Sit tight and we'll have it to you in a jif, where 'jif equals 2-12 hours.
xmonader
@xmonader
1) Do you consider yourself a programmer?
yes
2) Do you consider yourself a software engineer?
yes
3) Do you solve business problems with software?
yes
4) What kind of problems do you solve?
crms, automations framework, operating systems
5) What other languages have you used?
python, go, nim, haskell, bash, perl, typescript
6) What is your favorite language, and why?
python (readability and elegance)
7) Is "programmer" or "developer" in your job title?
Software Engineer (no)
8) Do you think Red should be for "everyone" (e.g., like Visual Basic)?
yes
9) Do you want to use Red for real work, or just fun?
I'd love to use it in lots of areas, quick scripts, parsing data, data transformation, quick UIs
10) What software do you pay for?
None.
lucindamichele
@lucindamichele
I actually love that you guys are posting your responses to share among the rest of this community, because it's cool to see us tell a little about who we are, what's important to us, and it seems to be encouraging new ideas to be discussed. Thank you all! You can always send them privately to myself or @greggirwin, of course. I'm sorting through them for a little research this week, so please do pipe in within the next day or so if you've not already.
Oldes Huhuman
@Oldes
À
Nenad Rakocevic
@dockimbel
FYI, I have just merged the Garbage Collector branch into master, as it should be stable enough now. One more big step towards a completed Red runtime. Next and last big step: full I/O support!
Vladimir Vasilyev
@9214
:fire: :chart_with_upwards_trend: :rocket: :full_moon_with_face: