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GiuseppeChillemi

@GiuseppeChillemi

(I have just corrected my text)

LFReD

@LFReD

I was working on this Atomica stuff back in 2010, so trying to refresh my memory climbing over the Altme archives, and came across this historical conversation. It's @dockimbel , @gchiu and I discussing the pros and cons of cloning Rebol. Interesting read.

http://www.rebol.org/aga-display-posts.r?post=r3wp495x8388

GiuseppeChillemi

@GiuseppeChillemi

@hiiamboris I am not able to understand the code (and maybe today I am too tired). Is has find this feature or that code mimics this feature ?

hiiamboris

@hiiamboris

>> key: 1  b: [0 0 0 1 1 1 2 2 2]  find/skip (skip b 2) key 3
== [1 2 2 2]    -- search by 3rd column of b

GiuseppeChillemi

@GiuseppeChillemi

So find is able to skip the searched series without interfering with its index. Good to know, great!

GiuseppeChillemi

@GiuseppeChillemi

@greggirwin

but when deeply experienced Reducers push back on your idea, you tend to push forward with the same request again

Greg, I didn't read this part. Why I ask a second time ? I see in my this vision the RED documentation chapter on Select with an example like mine and new developers all thinking: "great I can search in a blocks like I actually do in databases table, what a great language!". This because in the example you will show them intersects with what they are used to manage day after day. Do you know that showing to the potential adopters, in the very first moments, an operational framework similar to their usual one increases the adoption chance? I am a developer too and I remember when I have chosen something because of that something interacting with my needing. These are the reasons that would drive the request to reconsider that /pos refinement: its a MARKETING one other than a functional one.
However, thanks to your reply came the idea of creating a page about using RED blocks as database tables in programming.red.

Petr Krenzelok

@pekr

I would like any such discussions to move into some other channel. It is imo too much related to one's own projects vs the proposal towards the general language developments ....

GiuseppeChillemi

@GiuseppeChillemi

@pekr I don't agree. Select is one of the core instruction of Red. I have not asked for help for a solution (despite very welcome) but to have another refinement in select/find. Now the discussion is at its end, and the topic drifted and we need to move but until now we were talking about one of the Red core functions.
Feel free to continue this discussion on https://gitter.im/red/chit-chat

Semseddin Moldibi

@endo64

@GiuseppeChillemi Here is another solution with parse:

>> pos: none parse [1 2 a 3 4 b 5 6 c] [some [pos: 2 skip 'b (print ["Found record at index" index? pos] pos ) fail | 3 skip]] pos
Found record at 4
== [3 4 b 5 6 c]

GiuseppeChillemi

@GiuseppeChillemi

@endo64 you are all so generous, thank you!

GiuseppeChillemi

@GiuseppeChillemi

@endo64 :point_up_2: I have understood what this POS does

Nenad Rakocevic

@dockimbel

@GiuseppeChillemi

Select is one of the core instruction of Red.

It is not a fundamental "instruction", it is just a convenient syntactic sugar for second find on series to cover the common bias towards key/value pairs. You can build your own specific select-nth variation trivially (pick find ... nth), there is no need to bloat the runtime environment with such construct.

Petr Krenzelok

@pekr

Nice to see you, Doc!

GiuseppeChillemi

@GiuseppeChillemi

@dockimbel Nenad, we can do anything creating other functions, you are right. I think that having a full table search and retrieve methodology in the basic commands gives a sense of power when RED introduces itself to the developers, the so-called WOW factor!

@dockimbel Also, I add my words to Petr ones: nice to see you !

Semseddin Moldibi

@endo64

@GiuseppeChillemi pos in ...] pos) fail | 3 skip] part is unnecessary, a copy/paste error probably.

LFReD

@LFReD

@GiuseppeChillemi If you're looking for some specific feature in Red, then just fork it!

GiuseppeChillemi

@GiuseppeChillemi

The only fork I will activate will be on my pasta tomorrow.

Gregg Irwin

@greggirwin

:^)

LFReD

@LFReD

I wrote a little function to help you with that, maybe you can include it in your Red/system ...

fork: func [dishtype dishloc receivingdock][print rejoin ["Move fork to " dishtype " located at " dishloc " to " receivingdock]]

fork "pasta" "dinner table" "mouth"

Don't tell @Oldes about this, he'll rewrite it for sure ;)

Rudolf Meijer

@meijeru

@LFReD You can leave out the rejoin since print does that all by itself.

LFReD

@LFReD

Doh!

Rudolf Meijer

@meijeru

Moreover, print inserts spaces between each of the components of the block, so you don't need to put those in yourself.

Admittedly, this operation is not adequately documented. It does figure, however, in the "specs" document https://github.com/meijeru/red.specs-public/blob/master/specs.adoc, that I am responsible for. See section 11.2.

stmungo

@stmungo

Would someone tell me how to join the (Google) mailing list or where I would find instructions for same, please, When I click on the Red website mailing link the page says the group does not exist... Thanks.

ne1uno

@ne1uno

there does seem to be a problem accessing red-lang group by link or search

mostly of historical interest. browsing gitter red/help probably has more information

might be a glitch, other groups.google slow too

LFReD

@LFReD

Every company needs a goal, a one-liner, and that goal should be displayed above the white board of the board room. Every decision, product, direction etc should be to kick the ball towards the goal. Most of the staff I've worked with think the goal is to 'make money', which always the wrong goal.

So, what's Red's goal?

LFReD

@LFReD

Is it "To create the world's greatest programming language? "

If that's the goal, then where's the current choke point in reaching that goal? Where's the blockage? What's stopping you from reaching that goal right now?

LFReD

@LFReD

This is from the about page on the website
"Red’s ambitious goal is to build the world’s first full-stack language"

GaryMiller

@GaryMiller

I think the answer to blockage is always money, time, and talent Most all open source development visionaries would love to have enough play money to hire their best contributors to work full time and accelerate the project development life cycle.

I think this product is the closest as I've found to to a full-stack development environment although they support multiple languages under the cover and are expensive. And seem to be not that popular yet in the US. https://www.windev.com/index.html?p=google016WINDEV&gclid=CjwKCAiA8qLvBRAbEiwAE_ZzPcNis4EuqIrD9jsbwllmT1KVvJRcjuewIwW1tVwBvXOe2IvR088sZhoC3s4QAvD_BwE

LFReD

@LFReD

McDonalds had a goal "To deliver delicious pizza to the masses as quick as possible" .. each restaurant spent $50,000 US to buy specialized pizza ovens, ..that was $700M just in ovens alone.. throw in a $200M marketing campaign, renos because the pizza boxes couldn't fit through the drive-thru windows...

If the goal of Red is to 'build the world's first full-stack language', then you're right.

LFReD

@LFReD

Unless the goal of Red is "develop the world's first full-stack language over the course of 15+ years", you're going to need money.. BIG money.

Personally, I don't think any of these are the real goal.

GiuseppeChillemi

@GiuseppeChillemi

I can hear Vladimir asking to move to chit-chat

LFReD

@LFReD

Fair enough.

Gregg Irwin

@greggirwin

:point_up: December 5, 2019 11:19 AM @GaryMiller, WinDev is one of those old tools that has survived. The modern low-code/no-code tools were the RAD tools of the 90s, and the CASE tools of the 80s if they were around then. We've talked about that market, but a) there are deeply entrenched players there, with their following already locked in, and b) the seem to live off that, and aren't attracting new users in droves. Happy to be wrong about that, if somebody can find the data. Competing there is tough, because they have all the legacy integration bits in place, which is a huge effort; and if we look forward rather than backward, the future will be cloud and SaaS for some time now, until the next disruption.

LFReD

@LFReD

the future will be cloud and SaaS for some time now, until the next disruption.

@greggirwin How does Red fit into that vision? Cheyenne 2?

Gregg Irwin

@greggirwin

Having an old-school web server will be great, and Cheyenne will likely be ported to Red, but it's another generic language feature/library that nobody will pay for. So it falls into the FOSS side of the Red equation. Cloud and service offerings, built with Red, are viable, commercial product areas. We're doing market research for a number of things, with developer oriented tools leading the pack, and consumer oriented products coming after.

Nikita Korotkin

@TheHowdy_gitlab

Btw: thanks for the rate of new posting on the blog. Keep it up. That way we know you guys aren't dead yet ;)

Petr Krenzelok

@pekr

@greggirwin you imo really need to get Red into the browser and on the mobile platforms, you don't need any hard numbers for that imo. It is enough to watch the status quo. I know 2 of dev groups in our area, which switched to Flutter last year. I can hardly find any app, which uses native client in terms of a corporate environment, apart from SAP client and even that can be switched to web form. Dunno what is the right way, if it is some kind of VID4web translation, or running the whole app in some WebAssembly container, but it is indeed a big handicap. Strange thing is, that on the mobile, native apps are preferred, but on the desktop, not so ...

viayuve

@viayuve

@greggirwin we are currently paying oracle for database, syncfusion for UI Component and report. If red can produce UI component and report like that my company will happily buy it. I do understand putting app online and service market but still big chunk of market share prefer "in house" custom made software over generic because they like control and sense of data safety.

Respectech

@Respectech

@viayuve I agree with you.

GiuseppeChillemi

@GiuseppeChillemi

We prefer in house and independence too. Actually we are facing extortive tactics from our ERP seller which has remotely blocked our software to get money from us. This is happening with in house installed software and we are on emergency! We are accessing the data pipe directly on database table level. I don't want to imagine if the whole company was on cloud. The seller could have cut access to our data at any level and we would have already paid the extortion fee. I an not against clouds but companies needs to know that cloudware con turn to ramsomware nightmare instantly.

VaZub

@vazub

Hey guys, has anyone here tried doing any kind of data analysis in Red and can share any insights/experiences? I am aware, that at this stage of development, it would be unfair to compare Red's facilities to R or Python/Pandas, but I have a feeling that Red should be an interesting option to try, even without dedicated dataframe type and supporting library (unless I am missing something and there already is something of sorts).

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