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Jose C
@jmcardon
which is in particular why performance critical applications aren't written in haskell most of the time
haskell can be quite performant
but reasoning about it can definitely be difficult
@Richtype that said, games are terrible examples of this. Most game code is so bug-filled it's unreal
trepidacious
@trepidacious
Unreal is probably quite bug-free after all these years :)
Fabio Labella
@SystemFw
@trepidacious you are talking about records and namespacing. I don't think having those makes your language OO, I wouldn't call SML OO, for example
Jose C
@jmcardon
only took them 19 years
Fabio Labella
@SystemFw
btw, you can do a `f` b in Haskell
trepidacious
@trepidacious
@SystemFw For me though that's the useful bit of the grab bag of stuff that makes OO
Fabio Labella
@SystemFw
right, sure
trepidacious
@trepidacious
@SystemFw Yes but your "f" needs to be called something like noNotThatRecordWithANameThisOneName
Fabio Labella
@SystemFw
that's a specific wart of Haskell's record system
Rich
@Rich2
Show me the Functional equivalents of Civilisation, Rome Total War, Europa Universalis?
Fabio Labella
@SystemFw
it's not true in SML, purescript, or Frege, to name the firsts that spring to mind
trepidacious
@trepidacious
@SystemFw How do they handle it?
Jose C
@jmcardon
@Richtype games are not made in FP languages
or at least not many
Fabio Labella
@SystemFw
@trepidacious Purescript has first class records with . syntax. SML has records and modules. Frege looks like haskell but the data constructors are scoped
Rich
@Rich2
No but as there oodles of money to be made in games and fp makes things so easy why not?
Fabio Labella
@SystemFw
Garbage collection, for once
same reason why not a lot of games are written in Java either
(plus other reasons, but this one is a big one)
trepidacious
@trepidacious
@SystemFw There's minecraft
Martijn Hoekstra
@martijnhoekstra
many games also do horrible unspeakable things intertwining game logic with display and network stuff, due to the real time requirements. If you accept doing that, you lose most (all?) advantages of FP anyway.
Fabio Labella
@SystemFw
yeah, not a lotnone
trepidacious
@trepidacious
Maybe it will be like GC - as compiler/vm support gets better the performance will be acceptable, then about 10 years later people will start admitting that fact and using FP for games :)
Rich
@Rich2
Well my request would be until such time as FPers start delivering a full range of games could they stop trying to abolish imperative programming.
trepidacious
@trepidacious
You just need to wait for enough people with a misconception to retire or get promoted :)
Martijn Hoekstra
@martijnhoekstra
I'm not sure anyone is trying to abolish imperative programming in computer games
I think nobody is
Fabio Labella
@SystemFw
@Richtype would you say the same of Java-ists trying to abolish manual memory management?
Jose C
@jmcardon
My request would be until people writing garbage collected languages can deliver real time operating systems, they could stop trying to abolish manual memory management
Rich
@Rich2
I'm no fan of Java and I think Scala Native has the long term potential to replace C++. I like the imperative / functional choice in Scala.
Jose C
@jmcardon
My request would be until people writing high level languages can write an efficient XSalsa20 implementation, they could stop trying to abolish inline assembly
(repeat ad infinitum)
Fabio Labella
@SystemFw
Scala Native is still garbage collected
trepidacious
@trepidacious
@jmcardon Good real-time operating systems are a very specialised area, I mean I love GC, Scala, I would dearly love to write everything in them, but you more or less have to use C or something based on the same kind of model to get down to us-scale latency
Jose C
@jmcardon
so are games
games are a very specialized area as well
Eric K Richardson
@ekrich
@jmcardon I think that is true. Realtime Java had the ability to manage memory and of course Scala Native does.
Fabio Labella
@SystemFw
games are soft-realtime systems
Rich
@Rich2
@jmcardon No problem with that.
trepidacious
@trepidacious
@jmcardon Good enough latency for games is in ms, it's say 2-3 orders of magnitude less stringent
Stefan Zeiger
@szeiger
There's always Rust for the cases where you can't afford a gc
Jose C
@jmcardon
@ekrich I don't mean those things :P
I'm just trying to show where the rabbit hole leads.
These are opinions we have about the types of software we build.
Fabio Labella
@SystemFw
@trepidacious it's not necessarily about the order of magnitude. It's about predictability, that's what real time means. Garbage collection stands in the way of that, generally speaking
Doesn't mean we have to put up with it when we don't need to
trepidacious
@trepidacious
@jmcardon Also hard-realtime can involve demonstrating no interruptions of say > 50us, whereas in games it's probably fine to have an occasional lag of many ms, nothing will melt/explode :)