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Martijn Hoekstra
@martijnhoekstra
I'm not sure anyone is trying to abolish imperative programming in computer games
I think nobody is
Fabio Labella
@SystemFw
@Richtype would you say the same of Java-ists trying to abolish manual memory management?
Jose C
@jmcardon
My request would be until people writing garbage collected languages can deliver real time operating systems, they could stop trying to abolish manual memory management
Rich
@Rich2
I'm no fan of Java and I think Scala Native has the long term potential to replace C++. I like the imperative / functional choice in Scala.
Jose C
@jmcardon
My request would be until people writing high level languages can write an efficient XSalsa20 implementation, they could stop trying to abolish inline assembly
(repeat ad infinitum)
Fabio Labella
@SystemFw
Scala Native is still garbage collected
trepidacious
@trepidacious
@jmcardon Good real-time operating systems are a very specialised area, I mean I love GC, Scala, I would dearly love to write everything in them, but you more or less have to use C or something based on the same kind of model to get down to us-scale latency
Jose C
@jmcardon
so are games
games are a very specialized area as well
Eric K Richardson
@ekrich
@jmcardon I think that is true. Realtime Java had the ability to manage memory and of course Scala Native does.
Fabio Labella
@SystemFw
games are soft-realtime systems
Rich
@Rich2
@jmcardon No problem with that.
trepidacious
@trepidacious
@jmcardon Good enough latency for games is in ms, it's say 2-3 orders of magnitude less stringent
Stefan Zeiger
@szeiger
There's always Rust for the cases where you can't afford a gc
Jose C
@jmcardon
@ekrich I don't mean those things :P
I'm just trying to show where the rabbit hole leads.
These are opinions we have about the types of software we build.
Fabio Labella
@SystemFw
@trepidacious it's not necessarily about the order of magnitude. It's about predictability, that's what real time means. Garbage collection stands in the way of that, generally speaking
Doesn't mean we have to put up with it when we don't need to
trepidacious
@trepidacious
@jmcardon Also hard-realtime can involve demonstrating no interruptions of say > 50us, whereas in games it's probably fine to have an occasional lag of many ms, nothing will melt/explode :)
Fabio Labella
@SystemFw
same for imperative programming basically :P
Martijn Hoekstra
@martijnhoekstra
I think the strawman here is that nobody is trying to abolish imperative programming techniques in video games
Eric K Richardson
@ekrich
I think that GC is super nice but a system that supports both is not as safe but gives you options.
Rich
@Rich2
It should be noted no one creates games in C++. Its C++ plus one or more scripting langages, and possibly a load of XML.
Jose C
@jmcardon
I think optional GC support would be rad
@Richtype league of legends would like to have a word with you, as well as no man's sky
though lol isn't C++ only, it's also a bunch of lua
Eric K Richardson
@ekrich
Scala Native supports GC none option which may be good for some things like short running scripts.
trepidacious
@trepidacious
@SystemFw Yes that's true, I was just meaning that GC is much less of an obstacle for games that for many uses of hard real time systems because of the timescales. You could definitely have a hard real-time system with a guaranteed latency of < 100ms, but I'm not sure it would have many use cases.
Ah I am now definitely seeing the gitter problems :(
Eric K Richardson
@ekrich
The hard part with real time is certification. You have to have certification for any critical system and that tends to be done to the board/cpu level.
Rich
@Rich2
You see this is why I don't buy the performance excuse from FPs on games. I think FP is very well suited to the high scale applications of the web, but that doesn't mean its the best fit for everything. A language /ecosystem should scale down as well as up. We don't need an effect Monad to write Hello world. There are many tasks that the private individual /small bushiness person performs where imperative reasoning is fine.
Jose C
@jmcardon
yeah but when did any of us here claim FP is the hammer for all nails?
might sound like it but remember this is a Scala room and most people here are writing scala applications
trepidacious
@trepidacious
@Richtype If the individual/small business is not writing a game what's the connection though?
Jose C
@jmcardon
for the same reaosn the majority of games (note: not minecraft though minecraft performance isn't great either)
are not on the jvm
trepidacious
@trepidacious
Jose C
@jmcardon
A good chunk of the FP folk here are speaking in the web/backend/distributed systems domain where scala is being used, because, welp, we're in a scala room
At no point it's been implied that our statements re: FP extend to games, RTOS or anything really performance sensitive
So really, I believe you're strawmanning quite hard here
Rich
@Rich2
Well I am writing a game(s) /game engine. So I am biased, but I also think games are a great way for people to learn to code, or rather could be a great way to learn to code.
Jose C
@jmcardon
Ok great, and that's awesome, but scala isn't a lang where game engine code is usually written
trepidacious
@trepidacious
I have wondered occasionally about an FP game representing often-changing state as a function with time, so that we only need to produce a new state when something changes for reasons other than just the passage of time
Jose C
@jmcardon
yeah but a lot of purity is achieved in FP by thunking, and this has overhead
and depending on the game ms delays do matter
trepidacious
@trepidacious
From using a completely immutable data structure in a UI that was happy at 60fps I feel like it's maybe practical, possibly with the usual occasional tolerable GC glitch
Jose C
@jmcardon
but you weren't rendering like, AAA-tier graphics