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  • Dec 15 2021 05:01
    som-snytt commented #12516
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    SethTisue edited #1312
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Fabio Labella
@SystemFw
Doesn't mean we have to put up with it when we don't need to
trepidacious
@trepidacious
@jmcardon Also hard-realtime can involve demonstrating no interruptions of say > 50us, whereas in games it's probably fine to have an occasional lag of many ms, nothing will melt/explode :)
Fabio Labella
@SystemFw
same for imperative programming basically :P
Martijn Hoekstra
@martijnhoekstra
I think the strawman here is that nobody is trying to abolish imperative programming techniques in video games
Eric K Richardson
@ekrich
I think that GC is super nice but a system that supports both is not as safe but gives you options.
Rich
@Rich2
It should be noted no one creates games in C++. Its C++ plus one or more scripting langages, and possibly a load of XML.
Jose C
@jmcardon
I think optional GC support would be rad
@Richtype league of legends would like to have a word with you, as well as no man's sky
though lol isn't C++ only, it's also a bunch of lua
Eric K Richardson
@ekrich
Scala Native supports GC none option which may be good for some things like short running scripts.
trepidacious
@trepidacious
@SystemFw Yes that's true, I was just meaning that GC is much less of an obstacle for games that for many uses of hard real time systems because of the timescales. You could definitely have a hard real-time system with a guaranteed latency of < 100ms, but I'm not sure it would have many use cases.
Ah I am now definitely seeing the gitter problems :(
Eric K Richardson
@ekrich
The hard part with real time is certification. You have to have certification for any critical system and that tends to be done to the board/cpu level.
Rich
@Rich2
You see this is why I don't buy the performance excuse from FPs on games. I think FP is very well suited to the high scale applications of the web, but that doesn't mean its the best fit for everything. A language /ecosystem should scale down as well as up. We don't need an effect Monad to write Hello world. There are many tasks that the private individual /small bushiness person performs where imperative reasoning is fine.
Jose C
@jmcardon
yeah but when did any of us here claim FP is the hammer for all nails?
might sound like it but remember this is a Scala room and most people here are writing scala applications
trepidacious
@trepidacious
@Richtype If the individual/small business is not writing a game what's the connection though?
Jose C
@jmcardon
for the same reaosn the majority of games (note: not minecraft though minecraft performance isn't great either)
are not on the jvm
trepidacious
@trepidacious
Jose C
@jmcardon
A good chunk of the FP folk here are speaking in the web/backend/distributed systems domain where scala is being used, because, welp, we're in a scala room
At no point it's been implied that our statements re: FP extend to games, RTOS or anything really performance sensitive
So really, I believe you're strawmanning quite hard here
Rich
@Rich2
Well I am writing a game(s) /game engine. So I am biased, but I also think games are a great way for people to learn to code, or rather could be a great way to learn to code.
Jose C
@jmcardon
Ok great, and that's awesome, but scala isn't a lang where game engine code is usually written
trepidacious
@trepidacious
I have wondered occasionally about an FP game representing often-changing state as a function with time, so that we only need to produce a new state when something changes for reasons other than just the passage of time
Jose C
@jmcardon
yeah but a lot of purity is achieved in FP by thunking, and this has overhead
and depending on the game ms delays do matter
trepidacious
@trepidacious
From using a completely immutable data structure in a UI that was happy at 60fps I feel like it's maybe practical, possibly with the usual occasional tolerable GC glitch
Jose C
@jmcardon
but you weren't rendering like, AAA-tier graphics
I'm guessing
or games where there's so many environment artifacts that GC would be awful to use
or just look at minecraft
Ghost
@ghost~55118a7f15522ed4b3ddbe95
you can have purity and mutable data structures
they are largely orthogonal
Seth Tisue
@SethTisue
@trepidacious re "FP game representing often-changing state as a function with time", you might enjoy this series: http://prog21.dadgum.com/23.html
Rich
@Rich2
Its great that we've got Twitter, the Guardian, Banks and all the other high powered cutting edge Scala users, but I want Scala to become more accessible to simple games, other simple creative software, personal information management, scientists and the like. At the moment Python seems to be cleaning up the field.
trepidacious
@trepidacious
@jmcardon I think you might end up with something using FP for game logic running on an engine that might use mutation internally
Fabio Labella
@SystemFw
btw, if the threshold is small games with no AAA graphics, you can write those in Haskell as well (people do)
trepidacious
@trepidacious
@jmcardon I would guess that might work well since the code outside the engine might well not require amazing efficiency, but benefit a lot from being easier/more reliable to write (maybe :) )
Jose C
@jmcardon
yeah actually IIRC there's some steam games written in haskell
@Richtype that's much harder to do. Loads of scientists don't care about writing nice software. They just care about writing something that marginally works
python excels because the barrier of entry is almost just knowing how to put your thoughts in pseudo and it's almost python
trepidacious
@trepidacious
@Richtype It would be great to have a language that has both a shallow learning curve and great long term scalability, but it doesn't seem to have happened yet.
Jose C
@jmcardon
It also excels in causing headaches down the line, but you'll be hard pressed to convince many scientists to switch to scala when a good chunk of them don't give a crap about the code itself, only what it idoes
trepidacious
@trepidacious
@Richtype Maybe because it's not actually possible, some of the things that you need for scalability seem to be things that are not completely straightforward
Jose C
@jmcardon
Case in point: I worked in Civil Engineering research many years ago writing Matlab, and no one questioned my then-awful code.
It was practically crap looking at now, from my POV, but it worked and it served as a proof of concept and it was part of a Ph.D defence
Eric Li
@EricLiCA
because scientists don't write software that has to be maintained for years, you program to explore data, gain insights, and then throw it out
Rich
@Rich2
val bread = 0.70
val butter = 0.62
val cheese = 1.22
println(bread + butter + cheese)
A useful potentially useful programme that I would suggest doesn't need an IO Monad.