These are chat archives for supercollider/supercollider

21st
May 2017
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 16:59
we're looking at this thing in nCoda http://flatpak.org/
maybe something that will help us with Linux distributions
(cc @patrickdupuis)
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 18:55
@snappizz I think Flatpaks (and Snaps) are great. I never throught they would be useful to SC due to the fact that the applications run in sandoxes. Could it work?
BTW I'm interested in hearing more about nCoda
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 20:08
i have no experience with flatpak, just wondering if it's worth looking at. i guess not
here's nCoda: https://ncodamusic.org/ it's a environment that brings together a bunch of open source computer music notation technologies, providing a streamlined interface for editing them and getting them to talk to each other
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 20:09
maybe flatpaks could be useful
could SC run as a snadboxes application? i dont really know much about that
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 20:10
neither do i...
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 20:10
ok then :)
how did you get involved with nCoda?
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 20:11
i met one of the developers at a workshop for Abjad
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 20:11
are you one of the lead devs?
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 20:12
yeah, there are only 4-5 people on the project right now
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 20:12
looks like you are close to releasing
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 20:13
releasing something very, very basic
but yes
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 20:13
basic but usable?
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 20:14
it is usable, but the feature set is too small for use in serious compositional work
like, on release it won't support articulations
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 20:15
who needs articulations? I play Double bass, no articulations there :)
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 20:15
or dynamics. also, currently accidentals don't show up in the notation view, which is a bit of a problem
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 20:15
oh...
so does it use lilypond?
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 20:16
yes. verovio during editing, and lilypond for final tweaking and publishing
one of our contributors is working on interactivity for verovio, so you have two-way binding between code and graphics
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 20:17
nice!
there are so many music notation projects out there
im trying to wrap my head around it
my prof is very excited about MEI. I still dont know what it is exactly
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 20:18
basically, MusicXML that doesn't suck
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 20:19
great!
so its not just metadata
in the score
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 20:19
not sure what you mean
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 20:19
its the notation as well?
i though MEI was just metadata that you add to the notation
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 20:20
MEI encodes a complete hierarchical representation of the score
so the cool thing is that we can use hierarchical diff tools to create music notation diffs
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 20:21
all these things look to same to me rigth now
its going to take me a while to understand how they all fit together (MEI, lilypond, MusicXML, etc.)
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 20:22
MEI is also fairly new to me
Brian Heim
@brianlheim
May 21 2017 20:22
do you know if sib/finale are working to support mei?
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 20:22
any plans on integrating notation into SC
?
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 20:23
well it's tough to say. the timing, timbre, and tonality models of electronic music are much more expansive than what you can encode in western music notation
Brian Heim
@brianlheim
May 21 2017 20:24
is it not a separate filetype? or is musicxml <> mei trivial?
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 20:25
musicxml and mei are produced by entirely different organizations and are not compatible
verovio has a musicxml converter, never used it though http://www.verovio.org/musicxml.html
for some reason w3 is working on a new music encoding format, working title MNX
i have no idea why, it looks exactly like MEI so far
Brian Heim
@brianlheim
May 21 2017 20:27
oh cool there's a sib to mei plugin
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 20:27
have you ever used Dorico? I wonder if it is any good.
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 20:27
that thing's like $700 and doesn't work on Linux
Brian Heim
@brianlheim
May 21 2017 20:28
i think it's still basically minimum viable product
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 20:28
I know its not linux friendly, but I still might have to learn to use something like it for professional reasons
Brian Heim
@brianlheim
May 21 2017 20:28
from what i've heard anyway
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 20:28
im not familliar with sibelius or finale either
Brian Heim
@brianlheim
May 21 2017 20:28
sib is p easy to pickup
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 20:29
as i've heard the story, there was a lot of hype but Steinberg ended up releasing a product in a disappointingly early stage and D Spreadbury seemed kind of apologetic about it
Brian Heim
@brianlheim
May 21 2017 20:29
that's what i used to use for notation
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 20:29
Finale is pretty bad right?
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 20:29
my mother bought me a student version of Finale when i was 7
i had some very prolific years from 7-12. it was ok i guess
Brian Heim
@brianlheim
May 21 2017 20:30
according to my friends the recent finale updates have been disappointing
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 20:30
it was ok because it was the only option
but sibelius is not longer really in development?
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 20:31
ah yes, Avid
in short, capitalism happened
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 20:32
so Avid didn't just shelve it when they acquired it
Do either of you have much lilypond experience?
Brian Heim
@brianlheim
May 21 2017 20:33
very very little
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 20:33
i've used it for 7 years
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 20:34
the website seems to discourage people from using it directly.
they make it seem really hard to use
and encourage users to try frescobaldi
how bad is it ?
Brian Heim
@brianlheim
May 21 2017 20:34
don't have much reason to anymore, i think i'll be doin graphic scores from now on lol
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 20:34
:)
inkscape graphic scores!
Brian Heim
@brianlheim
May 21 2017 20:35
notation is lies
jk
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 20:35
LilyPond is great for what it's designed to do: automatically beautiful scores entered in a plaintext format
since it's made by grumpy old Unix men, it's just a command-line tool
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 20:36
so if I want to take a 18th century manuscript and make a modern notated version it would be good to use?
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 20:36
yep
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 20:36
great
i like to grumpy old school style anyway
Brian Heim
@brianlheim
May 21 2017 20:37
this has been on my mind a lot lately
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 20:38
seriously?
Brian Heim
@brianlheim
May 21 2017 20:38
lollll
yes
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 20:38
Sorry, taking a call
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 20:38
just be careful
use good technique
its just like playing an instrument
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 20:40
alright, i'm back
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 20:41
ill be waiting to see this nCoda release
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 20:42
you can try downloading and setting it up now
it kinda works, just use C major :)
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 20:42
seems complicated to install atm
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 20:42
oh yeah damn
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 20:43
ill wait for the flatpak:)
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 20:44
i mostly use pen and paper these days for composition, and typeset things in lilypond when i'm ready to go
but i've gotten so used to lily that i can compose basic things directly into it
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 20:45
its not for experimenting, i guess
final drafts only
what can you use for websites? is lilypond usable ?
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 20:46
yes, wikipedia uses it
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 20:46
cool
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 20:46
probably not trivial to set up though
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 20:47
there are web standards in the works?
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 20:47
don't think so
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 20:47
oh..
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 20:47
verovio and vexflow can also be used for web notation though
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 20:48
what was that w3 things you mentionned ealier?
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 20:48
MNX? like i said, i have no idea why they're making it
both verovio and vexflow have sort of ugly looking output
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 20:49
maybe MNX is going to suit the needs of the industry?
whatever needs they have for notation on the web...
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 20:50
but why couldn't they just make MEI notation for the web
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 20:50
they could, and maybe they will once MEI becomes the dominant format it is becoming
MNX and MEI could align
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 20:51
yeah. i do feel it's unlikely that browsers will want to support notation natively
hell, they don't even support math equations natively
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 20:51
it will take some time
really?
you can't write a math formula in HTMl?
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 20:52
actually wait, MathML is supported in browsers
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 20:53
its recent though...
I have a SC question
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 20:54
what's up
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 20:54
have you seem #2879?
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 20:56
not until now
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 20:56
its marked "low hanging fruit" so I was curious
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 20:56
should be pretty easy
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 20:56
ok, is it urgent? for 3.9?
doesn't look like it
I might try and fix the issue, with your guidance
in a week or so
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 20:58
it's not urgent, but proper error handling seems pretty important
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 20:58
i can do the repetitive work, if the solution is clear
maybe it's not "low hanging fruit" then
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 20:59
basically, change foo { _Bar } to foo { _Bar; ^this.primitiveFailed }
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 21:01
each change would be it's own commit, which means they will add up to a pretty long list of changes in the PR
better for clarity
i guess
one commit per class wouldn't be that many i guess
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 21:02
feel free to pile 'em up
one commit for all the changes might be better actually
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 21:02
alright
and I only need to add ^this.primitivFailed
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 21:03
yep
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 21:03
ok, ill do it next week if it hasn't already been done
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 21:03
thanks for volunteering to work on it :)
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 21:04
no problem
im looking for work!
easy work
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 21:04
would be good to leave a comment on the issue so everyone knows
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 21:04
ok
done
one more thing before I go...
3.9 has two issues still pending
one of them is the Ubuntu shortcuts
has any work been done? is there anything I can do?
with my limited skill set
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 21:06
the main problem is that currently no active contributors have bothered to reproduce it
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 21:06
are you not on Ubuntu?
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 21:07
with Xfce, not Unity
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 21:07
oh...
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 21:07
so i need to fire up a VM to test it out
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 21:07
ok
what do you think the problem is?
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 21:08
the upgrade to Qt 5 broke some of the macros we use to test for Linux
in particular (and this was the cause of the infamous tooltip issue) #ifdef Q_WS_X11 now always returns false
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 21:09
i see that the issue was initaly reported on 16.10
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 21:09
i think the solution is to find instances of #ifdef Q_WS_X11 in keyboard shortcut code and change go #if defined(Q_OS_UNIX) && !defined(Q_OS_MAC)
it sounds easy, but we need to actually check to see if it works, and therefore we need someone who can repro it
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 21:10
you should write that in the comments of the issue
do you want me to test to see if the issue is still there for the most recent ubuntu?
in a VM
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 21:11
yes please
is 17.04 the last one with unity?
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 21:12
the latest will be the last
so yes
17.04 is the most recent
17.10 will have gnome 3
i can test 17.04 in a VM
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 21:14
excellent
and i can blindly commit a fix and let you test it out
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 21:15
alright
ill let you know when I am up and running
later this week?
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 21:15
sounds good
Patrick Dupuis
@patrickdupuis
May 21 2017 21:15
ok
got to go
Bye!
Nathan Ho
@snappizz
May 21 2017 21:16
bye!
Brian Heim
@brianlheim
May 21 2017 21:16
bye!