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    Kevin Lamping
    @klamping
    in theory that clutters up the code and increase page size
    but that's a pretty far stretch IMO
    Clint Hoagland
    @vsComputer_twitter
    IME bcz it breaks their OO design and "exposes class internals," usually because I want to do shit like inject a mock
    Natalie J. Bennett
    @njbennett
    @vsComputer_twitter ... have they heard about dependency injection?
    Clint Hoagland
    @vsComputer_twitter
    They have and they're against it. (Those that fight me on it)
    Natalie J. Bennett
    @njbennett
    That's fascinating. I was taught dependency injection as an Important Technique as a baby coder, before I learned TDD or even really had the programming knowledge to get what DI was.
    Clint Hoagland
    @vsComputer_twitter
    If you don't agree with TDD in principle and you don't think unit tests are important, dependency inversion doesn't seem all that important either.
    Natalie J. Bennett
    @njbennett
    Hmmm... I agree that it becomes a lot more important if you practice TDD, but I've worked with developers who were suspicious of TDD but valued loosely coupled and swappable components. I've also seen TDD proponents argue that the design changes you make in response to wanting to unit test things are part of what makes TDD a valuable practice.
    Clint Hoagland
    @vsComputer_twitter
    I agree with that. #choir
    Rey Winters
    @reywinters03
    There have been many arguments about changing code for test ability
    1. This is a dynamic table you want me to add ids on all the rows? But it'll change all the time how does that help you
    1. Why do you need that it doesn't help us
    s/1/2
    1. Why are you using that what if I change that in the future? What do you mean then it'll break? That's just useless and more work for the devs
    s/1/3
    Gitter won't let me out in 1. 2. 3. .... Booooo
    Natalie J. Bennett
    @njbennett
    I have less sympathy for people who try to convince you that writing tests conflicts somehow with Good Engineering.
    ... I think Gitter may have lost a bunch of messages from me
    Clint Hoagland
    @vsComputer_twitter
    I only see the two.
    Natalie J. Bennett
    @njbennett
    Yeah. The first one was gonna be-- Choir or not, I want to emphasize that writing and maintaining tests is an established techniques practiced by professionals serious about their craft. There are other techniques you can use to get similar results (good code review with a fanatical devotion to clean code, certain architectural and language decisions) but testing isn't "purists" vs. "those darn testers."
    I do have sympathy for people who are nervous about tests. It's hard to do well, most people aren't taught, and when done badly it can be really painful.
    But see "less sympathy" comment above.
    And changing code for test ability is a big part of the practice of writing tests regularly. It's bedrock:
    Clint Hoagland
    @vsComputer_twitter
    It seems like Rey's in a seat that's A: not at all uncommon and B: an antipattern that kinda sets her up to fail: a "test automator" that isn't on the dev team.
    Rey Winters
    @reywinters03
    What's sad is the things I'm saying is common in about 6 different companies ...
    i can understand why. It's tedious ... Gets in the way of the creative building to have to test each structure.
    And like some other people don't write it why do I have to ... And it's making me look unproductive since testing isn't something I can show ofd
    Off**
    And come on ... Is it really that necessary?
    I don't even know where to start
    Rey Winters
    @reywinters03
    Stuff like that
    Rey Winters
    @reywinters03
    So ... What's an easy way to get into testing
    Any testing is good testing?
    Clint Hoagland
    @vsComputer_twitter
    first, what do you mean by "testing?"
    This gitter room seems to be mostly about what the test industry calls "automated checks" (which the programming industry calls "automated tests")
    Clint Hoagland
    @vsComputer_twitter
    Writing automated tests for your code is a development technique, which should be done by the people writing the SUT. Sort of like building a car with the dashboard sensors built in rather than somehow trying to put them into a car after you already manufactured it.
    Getting into "testing" as far as being a professional exploratory tester/test lead (which what I do), you could get into it like I did (by having a degree in something unrelated and talking your way into the job) or you could do the BBST course(s) which would probably help a lot (I didn't do that)
    Rey Winters
    @reywinters03
    Cool defining it. What I meant by testing is just the way devs hear "testing"
    Do they write automated checks?
    Clint Hoagland
    @vsComputer_twitter
    It probably differs from workplace to workplace. My company has been around since the 80s and when they hear "testing" they think of handing it to the QA department so that people can find bugs and hand it back.
    but a lot of newer web companies are talking about writing unit/integration/UI tests.
    Natalie J. Bennett
    @njbennett
    @reywinters03 Are you having a hard time convincing devs you work with to look into testing? What's your goal here?
    Rey Winters
    @reywinters03
    @njbennett no I'm not trying to convince the people I work with. I'm trying to help the general public ... There are many devs out there that likes testing but don't know where to start. Or have their own ideas of what testing is. Or managers that want testing but don't know how to get his/her team to start. Or even ones who have been writing tests to help refine the skill ....
    I want a hybrid place where it doesn't matter what your title is. If you're writing software to test other software this place should be able to help refine, educate and/or kickstart the process
    Artur
    @aabdullin
    Hey, guys. I have some questions :) we are using Testrail (for checklists) - Screenshot1.
    When I was writing specs in Gherkin for mobile app i used signs to mark from TestRail like ‘C165’ for future tracking - Screenshot2.
    For navigation specs (to check all ‘back/forth’ buttons) i was thinking to write separate test-scripts. And i developed transitional diagram - Screenshot4.
    How to correctly divide/include all functionalities on test scripts (negative/positive) correctly - for easily maintaining in future, not for redoing that. I understand that's pretty vague question, maybe you could give me some clues. Do you know is it possible to connect BDD scripts to Jira, so it can automatically upload the bug and make a screenshot. All screens: https://www.dropbox.com/home/Screens I would appreciate any help
    Clint Hoagland
    @vsComputer_twitter
    That link doesn't have anything user specific in it so it definitely does not link to your screenshots.
    But - with apologies - I don't know anything about JIRA and any APIs it has for creating new bugs with screenshots but based on other experiences I believe that it does have one.
    It would be a matter of calling that API with whatever Gherkin-parsing scripting tool you're using.
    UNRELATED: do people unit test their UI and integration tests?
    Rey Winters
    @reywinters03
    @rutr1ka I don't see any screenshots so I'm going to try to answer as best I can ... Using the page object pattern will help with your scalability. As for jira you might be able to write