Where communities thrive


  • Join over 1.5M+ people
  • Join over 100K+ communities
  • Free without limits
  • Create your own community
People
Activity
  • Sep 05 14:45
    @typelevel-bot banned @jdegoes
Alexandru Nedelcu
@alexandru

@eli-jordan
We encourage healthy disagreement and differences of opinion. This action was not due to healthy disagreement or a difference in opinion.

And while choosing the best option is often what we want, the well-being of the contributors is more important.

Eli Jordan
@eli-jordan
@alexandru There have been several requests for examples of behavior that was considered unacceptable. I am yet to see any produced. I read the gitter channels and github issues, and I have never seen anything that I’d consider unacceptable.
Rob Norris
@tpolecat
@dimitarg Use your common judgment about what civil and constructive participation looks like. Moderators will help guide the conversation if necessary (a private note if needed) and that is almost always the end of it. However in this case there was a long-running pattern of behavior that numerous interventions couldn't correct.
YulawOne
@YulawOne

Me too, I'd like to hear more about this decision. To the person whom healthiness of community will directly effect, as developer who are using FPlibraries in production in commercial company.
I'd like to know what in particularly, so exceptionally wrongful was done to force typelevel community to completely bury all the progress that was done for about 2 years towards unity of FP communities, which historically were split?
What would be with all the work that was done for Cat/Cat-IO and ZIO coexistence?
How would you prevent next community split? As ZIO rapidly developing and definitely would have fans.

Even though, I was never in first lines and was never in ZIO/Scala Z community, but observing the situation from the benches, I haven't found anything particularly aggressive in John de Goes statements and many of them had fair groundful position.

Diego E. Alonso Blas
@diesalbla

the well-being of the contributors is more important

Mr. de Goes may well be regarded as a contributor, if only to the technical discussion. His well-being is also to be balanced on, much as that of many other contributors.
Which is why pointing a few salient cases in which his actions may have, intentionally or not, made people uneasy or unwelcome, is a reasonable ask.
Not as a "justification" of why you are declining his contributions hence-forth (something to which of course you are fully entitled to),
but also as a concrete example for others to profit from, and beware from.

Dimitar Georgiev
@dimitarg
@tpolecat deeply believe it will be more constructive, given recent events, to have clear, publicly available examples of what constitutes combativeness vs accepted behaviour. My common judgement possibly differs greatly from yours, we are humans.
If there are reasons this cannot happen, these should be made explicit.
It must also be acknowledged how this blog post, without these examples, could come off as an opinion piece at best.
Which Typelevel is perfectly entitled to, as is any OSS software author, but that should also be made explicit if the case
Edwin de Jong
@gedejong
Personally I think there are certain moral obligations in the role of an arbiter in an effectively open community. It is reasonable to mirror arbitration with our own judicial structures, in as far as they can stretch given the limited capabilities available. Banning someone from a community of hundreds of contributors and thousands of users has real-world reputational consequences. Our societies are extremely allergic to injustice, especially when handed out by those who judge. That's why our judicial system is open, unless there is good cause to be closed. I think I speak not just for myself, when I ask for openness on evidence and due process to assess whether a just decision has been made.
Alexandru Nedelcu
@alexandru

I'm speaking in my own personal name — and this is a little emotional, since I'm a little tired and it's 01:00 am here. Other Typelevel members may or may not agree with what I'm saying, take this as an opinion piece ...

Anyone actively involved with cats-effect development knows what we're talking about. Others may need to simply accept that this is the consensus view of the active contributors who are actually doing the hard work of advancing cats-effect technically.

Note that we are talking about interactions between humans. We aren't a court room to decide someone's guilt, we are people, many of us work in our spare time on these Scala projects — personally I'm no longer a consultant atm, I gain absolutely nothing by contributing to Scala projects — if we feel bad when collaborating with someone, if we feel fatigue and even burnout, if we feel like quitting this ecosystem altogether, that's basically enough. This is all volunteer based, with few exceptions — that's the nature of open source and it's important to keep in mind.

I do share your concerns. However if you treat the people you're talking to with kindness and respect, just like you'd do in a professional setting, then it's all good. We interacted with thousands of people, helping them use our projects and dozens turned into contributors. How many of them did you hear complaining? How many of them did we treat poorly? I think you'll find that we have an excelent track record of maintaining a welcoming environment.

Also I hope you're not expecting a judicial system out of people contributing their work for free. The government does that, after you payed them taxes. It's late, so going to bed 👋

Rob Norris
@tpolecat
That's good.
Brian P. Holt
@bpholt
I'm not a typelevel member (although I've made a few minor contributions to some of the libraries) and in fact don't 100% know who was responsible for today's decision, but that seems right to me
Edwin de Jong
@gedejong
@alexandru thank you for your reply and this late at night. This is why I mentioned: "in as far as they can stretch given the limited capabilities available". I respect the decision and I understand not all data can be made public. Still, the gravity of the decision, in particular w.r.t. his reputation, should concern us all. IMHO banning someone in such a public manner, is passing a judgement. As a community, it makes sense to try to apply best practices we've learned as a society (openness and rights to a fair hearing). /me is not a contributor, but used and advocated many of the projects that have become part of the typelevel ecosystem in the last 3-4 years. Good night.
Edwin de Jong
@gedejong
@alexandru in November last year you were still glad that John de Goes joined a conference (we can read on #cats-effect-dev). I've scrolled all the way up in both cats-effect and cats-effect-dev for a year. Although sometimes the discussions were a bit obnoxious (from all sides), I cannot find any evidence whatsover that would justify publicly nailing John to the pillory.
Diego E. Alonso Blas
@diesalbla

Dear @alexandru, and I hope @milessabin too:

  • Typelevel keeps several channels (Gitter / Github) , published but not public, managed by a private group of individuals (like yourself) for their own ends.
  • You may want to, and will, allow in those who may help your ends, or you may want to bar those who do not. In that vein, you may want to, hypothetically, bar anyone who, either subtly or blatantly, be it harsh or smooth, tries to steer those channels to their own ends, or to push their own agendas, trumping yours.
  • You owe no explanation, reason, nor apology to no one about what comes (or rather goes) in your channel, and you need pay attention to nothing but your interests, wishes, and humour. If anyone asks you why, you do not have to please them with your answers.

All of this, of course, is the right and healthy attitude of private individuals acting for their own ends.

Having stated the obvious (though oft forgotten), for those of us who share and wish to and do cooperate with those ends, we would benefit from a more detailed description, be it with rules or a few chosen cases, which may illustrate your choice. Not to question it: again, you have to please no one with your answers. But rather, to serve as an example to others, of what to avoid and mind for; and as a sample of what some common sense on this is.

Wojtek Pituła
@Krever
I just would like to point out that better timing may not help with conspiracy theories but it would certainly lower the psychological damage done to John. As tough as he may seem he is still a human and we should always care about human emotions and psychology. Having multiple parties attack you at the same time is nothing but good for ones mental health. Actions like that could cause burnout at best and depression at worst. Something went very bad here.
I can’t be sure of the veracity of that post as the official explanation of the reason for the ban as it was posted by John but it’s on Daniels github so it’s probably pretty accurate?
Mark Moore
@MarkRBM
If so, it is mind boggling how those two issues can be given as examples of ‘abuse’ or whatever they are supposed to be examples of, with a straight face. What is the purpose of a code of conduct if not to encourage interactions to occur EXACTLY LIKE THAT. It seems to me there are personality clashes, the code of conduct is doing its job by ensuring the debates stay civil and on topic and that’s still not enough for the leadership so they want the personality they clash with gone. This is 100% their prerogative given the nature of open source, it’s also an act of bullying and is an abuse of power imo.
Wojtek Pituła
@Krever
@MarkRBM I have no association with typelevel whatsoever, but I agree that Johns interaction can be very very irritating. And this is what happened here. It has nothing to do with code of conduct, its just too annoying for cats-effect maintainers. You can't expect people to do painful things in their free time and Typelevel steering committee wants to have as many happy maintainers as possible. So if you're upsetting majority of maintainers you're out.
How this interacts with idea of CoC? I dont know, I'm not big fan of the idea in the first place. For this to be answered we need someone else to explain.
Eli Jordan
@eli-jordan
Sounds like a terrible way to run a technically sounds community to me
Alexandru Nedelcu
@alexandru

@eli-jordan it is what it is.

You can participate and tell us what we can do to be better, you could try your hand at building your own community and lead by example, etc. This isn't a technical problem though, it's a people issue. Those are always hard. Your feedback is appreciated.

@MarkRBM I understand your concern however you were not the interlocutor in those conversations. We were. And as I've said, we are not out to prove anything, we are just protecting our work and sanity. I hope you can respect that.

@diesalbla Your message was fully noted. The concern about what the proper behavior should be is shared by others as well and we'll try to better communicate that. Note however that this has been happening for months. If something like this will happen to anybody else, it shouldn't be a surprise when it does. Again, it might not be visible to bystanders, but we've been really generous with our time and patience.

I do appreciate your comment, thanks for it.

dwhitney
@dwhitney
I agree with the comments about people wanting further documentation justifying the actions. I remember when John posted the FCOP issue on typelevel/general, and several trolls showed up and commented with utter non-sense. The response was to delete the posts https://github.com/typelevel/general/issues/74#issuecomment-301990373
I remember being puzzled by that response as the comments so clearly highlighted why the typelevel CoC was necessary, and why the FCOP would fail to address the trolling
also I remember @tpolecat commented essentially what I stated above, and it looks like that comment has been deleted too?
Trolls annoy me as much as the next guy, but they sure do a good job of highlighting why all of these actions are necessary
and it's nice to have something concrete to point to.
I don't find that 100% of @travisbrown's post is fair (more like 75%), but it may be the first real concrete accounting of what has until now been mostly an oral history
just my food for thought
Travis Brown
@travisbrown
For the record, @dwhitney, none of the Typelevel organizers had any knowledge of that post before I published it, and I didn't know about the Typelevel decision until Wednesday.
Also it's focused on an almost entirely distinct set of concerns, so I'm not sure it's relevant here.
dwhitney
@dwhitney
@travisbrown - yeah was meant as more of an example of what I think would be a better practice (providing evidence, not erasing it)
Travis Brown
@travisbrown
Okay, makes sense.
Christopher Davenport
@ChristopherDavenport

We're aware that a private gist of a final draft posted by a committee member was publicly circulated. This was a private message to select members of the Scala community. We chose to keep our public statement brief out of courtesy to John. The text was authored by the Typelevel Steering Comittee which consists of Christopher Davenport, Alexandru Nedelcu, Ross A Baker, Daniel Spiewak, Miles Sabin, Lars Hupel, Michael Pilquist, Kai Wang, and Luka Jacobowitz over the last 11 weeks.

https://gist.github.com/ChristopherDavenport/e774563572a25ec589b092a0aa60724f

dwhitney
@dwhitney
that post was 1000% better than the typelevel blog post in describing why the action was taken. I could see editing some of it for public consumption, but I think a more precise communication style would lead to more understanding in general.
Piotr Paradziński
@lemastero

Hello,

1)
The publicly available information about the reasons why John De Geos was banned (apart from the blog post: https://typelevel.org/blog/2019/09/05/jdg.html) are:

Please consider adding rationale you have (like the one in https://gist.github.com/djspiewak/39fcf30fc4480abb5096010886558792/).

People from the Scala community (like me) and from outside of it (Haskell community, mathematicians) have the impression that TB list is the reason.

2)
If the slowdown of releases, burn out of maintainers of Cats Effects during work on making Cats Effect a common abstraction for Monix Task, Cats Effect IO, ZIO then maybe different approach could be used than banning JdG. Maybe in relevant Cats Effect issue, publicly state that ZIO will not be supported?

3)
I am sorry you feel burned out. I share this feeling after being accused by Travis Brown followers of being a misogynic and white supremacist (https://twitter.com/pparadzinski/status/1088047089639190528).
This sucks esp. that I did stand up IRL against people who was insulting to women.

I was dealing with burnout by having a short break, physical activities, meeting with people I care about.

I hope you will find a way to replenish the resources & have fun from pursuing your passions :)

PS
I got only one small contrib to Cats. If anything I am Scalaz contributor so my voice is probably not significant.

Rob Norris
@tpolecat
I'm also on the steering committee (Chris left my name out above).
Alexandru Nedelcu
@alexandru

@lemastero thanks for your suggestions. Note that the new link for that gist is the one pasted above, since we want to make it clear that this was not the action of one individual:

https://gist.github.com/ChristopherDavenport/e774563572a25ec589b092a0aa60724f

Daniel Spiewak
@djspiewak

I got only one small contrib to Cats. If anything I am Scalaz contributor so my voice is probably not significant.

I don't think anyone's voice is insignificant. We all have feelings and opinions and fears and doubts and hopes. In the end, we all want the same basic things.

The Travis Brown list isn't the reason. As Chris noted, what Typelevel did yesterday has been in motion for months, far predating Travis' post. I honestly don't have any insight into Skills Matter's decision. My guess is that their rationale was TB's post, but I really don't have an inside information there one way or another. Chris re-posted the gist above, along with a clarification on its collective authorship, and I think that goes into a lot more detail than the public blog post.

Maybe in relevant Cats Effect issue, publicly state that ZIO will not be supported?

ZIO will be supported though. At least to the same extent that the cats effect IO monad and Monix Task are. For one thing, there are people using ZIO who benefit enormously from Cats Effect and the ecosystem around it. Why would we have any desire to hurt anyone? John has already stated that Kai will be the more official ZIO point of contact with CE, and Kai has already (for some time now) been materially contributing to and collaborating on cats effect.

The burnout is just from dealing with the constant threat of John's aggression. That's… really all there is to it.

This sucks esp. that I did stand up IRL against people who was insulting to women.

I know what that feels like. It sucks. Hold your head up high.

Piotr Paradziński
@lemastero
@djspiewak @tpolecat @alexandru thank you for your responses. On an unrelated note - I have learned a lot from your blogs & presentations :)
Daniel Spiewak
@djspiewak
<3
Rob Norris
@tpolecat
:-)
Sridhar Ratnakumar
@srid

https://gist.github.com/ChristopherDavenport/e774563572a25ec589b092a0aa60724f

Thanks for providing the details!

To those that have originally requested these specific examples backing the original accusation - I highly encourage you read the 3 PRs/issues linked in this Gist, especially all the comments made by John, and ask yourself in what manner exactly any of those comments are "combative" (be it "extremely" or not), as obviously it would only be sensible to find the facts of the matter for oneself instead of relying somebody else's paraphrasing.

Seth Tisue
@SethTisue
Travis has apologized to Ben, here: typelevel/general#98
dwhitney
@dwhitney
hey also in response to my comments above, I want to rescind what may have sounded like criticism. The position you guys are voluntarily in is tough and thankless, and I appreciate all that you do and respect the tough decisions you've made, and I could not make better decisions
it's easy to monday-morning-quarterback, and sometimes I need to remind myself of that
Edwin de Jong
@gedejong
@srid I'd like to answer your question and have considered my words carefully. I have read the PRs and I would wish upon any other community the level of insights delivered by John de Goes, given his tenacity, intelligence and open-mindedness. In written word, it is easy to project a certain tone of voice which can color the message positively and negatively. The mode of communication on GitHub on PRs (open-ended discussions without branching) in combination with the abstract level of discourse can be a taxing place for everyone. Our natural reaction is to squelch the disturbing voices, in order to structure our environment and alleviate the stress. However, in reality the true source of stress lies within ourselves. Preach love, not hate. (you can ban me now)
Alexandru Nedelcu
@alexandru

@gedejong thanks for preaching love, I guess? :)

In reality the tolerance we personally have is not up for debate. As I said already, the interlocutor has been us, not you.

Also those PRs are removed from a general context that we cannot present with accuracy because that would have implied keeping tabs, e.g. past tweets that are no longer available, conversations he had, the works. Which might have also embarrassed John, more than the current situation did — this being one reason for why the public post completely lacked detail, to minimize damage. Not sure if @srid for example is aware of what is being asked for going forward.

We can agree to disagree of course, but I'm all love right now and I'm preaching it 🤗

Edwin de Jong
@gedejong
Let love then be your guiding principle.