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    armanbilge closed #4255
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Edmund Noble
@edmundnoble
I think Foldable should be moved there too.
BennyHill
@BennyHill
Ahh... alleycats has two dependencies on algebra, in One and zero
Michael Pilquist
@mpilquist
:-1: on moving Foldable
Edmund Noble
@edmundnoble
Why?
Michael Pilquist
@mpilquist
B/c I'm not convinced by the lawless argument
Edmund Noble
@edmundnoble
Not convinced of what? If we are allowing lawless type classes in cats we don't need type classes in alleycats.
Michael Pilquist
@mpilquist
I'm not convinced it is lawless
Edmund Noble
@edmundnoble
We are not being consistent. Unless you're arguing that Foldable is too useful to exclude despite its lawlessness, in which case nobody has even been able to make the case for Empty, EmptyK, Pointed, etc.
Oh.
Do you have laws in mind?
Michael Pilquist
@mpilquist
It's just toList
Haskell community has had this argument a dozen times over
There's also #107, which would be impossible to implement if Foldable was moved
Edmund Noble
@edmundnoble
Right but that's because modularity is antithetical to cohesive design.
Michael Pilquist
@mpilquist
Which in practice means we end up with some ad-hoc selection of useful methods promoted to Traverse
Edmund Noble
@edmundnoble
I really don't care if the Haskell community argues about this a lot. toList has no laws attached that aren't guaranteed by parametricity. And Foldable derivation from Traverse is practically very inefficient and not stack-safe or lazy.
BennyHill
@BennyHill
There is already some Foldable syntax in alleycats
Edmund Noble
@edmundnoble
Now if "the only laws that exist are guaranteed by parametricity" are enough for something to be a type class (which I don't see an issue with) then FunctionK is a type class.
BennyHill
@BennyHill
It would help reading code which is split across the two projects (e.g. related to JS futures)
ie having alleycats under cats would facilitate this in some, but not all, cases
Edmund Noble
@edmundnoble
Regardless I am really not that strongly in favor of moving Foldable. I do think however that a FreeMonoid typeclass would be a useful addition to the Foldable hierarchy, and that would have extra checkable laws.
The same Foldable/Traverse problem arises with Zero/Monoid but it's not really a problem there, just because of implicit derivation.
BennyHill
@BennyHill
so re the algebra dependency on alleycats, that (I think) would currently be a blocker on this
and, tbh, is probably currently not quite right anyway
Kai(luo) Wang
@kailuowang
what’s wrong with alleycats depending on algebra?
BennyHill
@BennyHill
well the bigger problem is moving into cats repo
as algebra depends on cat-kernel
but even so, this was all done before the cats-core and cats-kernel split
so now, today, an algebra user that wants ,say additiveMonoidIsZero would also have to bring in cats, as well
so, theoretically, we would need alleycats-core, alleycats-kernel, or something
BennyHill
@BennyHill
In that respect, outlaws would a more appropriate name - eg cats.outlaws, kernel.outlaws
Greg Pfeil
@sellout
cats.alley, kernel.alley, doobie.alley
BennyHill
@BennyHill
and then algebra.outlaws
well alleycats has a dual meaning in english and , erm, the other two haven't ;)
Greg Pfeil
@sellout
I know. I was hoping I’d come across something clever, like tinpan.alley, but doobie.alley was as much as I could scrounge up.
BennyHill
@BennyHill
heh
anyway, bedtime for me, nn :sleeping:
doobie.outlawed would work :smoking:
Long Cao
@longcao
doobie.streetcorner
Daniel Spiewak
@djspiewak
@kailuowang just tried to merge a PR on cats and the push was rejected; do I have the appropriate permissions?
Peter Neyens
@peterneyens
Not yet I think, it still says contributor where it should say collaborator.
Daniel Spiewak
@djspiewak
hrm
attn @ceedubs?
Cody Allen
@ceedubs
@djspiewak sorry neither Kai nor I have admin rights to the repo, so we can’t give you rights :(. We are trying to get that remedied.
Daniel Spiewak
@djspiewak
Rats
Kai(luo) Wang
@kailuowang
Thanks @ceedubs!
Kai(luo) Wang
@kailuowang
super quick one typelevel/cats#1695
Arya Irani
@aryairani
Hey what ended up happening with Task again? abstracting over it?
some library?
effects4s?