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    Bob Haugen
    @bhaugen
    Have you looked thru these examples? https://valueflo.ws/examples/ex-complex.html
    there's a section of examples with diagrams at https://valueflo.ws/
    simkimsia
    @simkimsia

    Thanks @bhaugen

    Learn more about recipes?
    Or just follow the Hruby book and start implementing immediately?

    I am still trying to learn more abt REA and valueflows via reading and asking questions see which way suits my problem set better.

    At the same time, I'm experimenting with what I have read in REA book and from valueflows in my actual client projects as a way to learn as well.

    right now, what i have tried is
    1. ask questions here
    2. send email to hruby asking him abt linkage pattern and aspects
    3. experiment with a bit of linkage pattern in my client project but using a lot of postgres jsonb field to add more flexibility.. i did use your terminology in the slide where you use the term "Actual" to denote the actual resource versus resource type. I like that.

    @simkimsia we have the book, you can just cite page numbers if you want.

    Oh roger that!

    Bob Haugen
    @bhaugen

    I am still trying to learn more abt REA and valueflows via reading and asking questions see which way suits my problem set better.

    In general, if your problem is for a single company or an enterprise with multiple divisions but still in a mother-children structure, the Hruby book might be better.
    If your problem is for a network of multiple independent agents, VF might be better.

    That was a rough guess.
    Re linkage (bill of materials) vs recipe: I think depends on whether you want to plan materials only, or also plan processes and labor and equipment requirements at the same time.
    Bob Haugen
    @bhaugen
    In either case, it's a dependent demand explosion: http://mikorizal.org/dependent_demand.pdf
    simkimsia
    @simkimsia

    how abt i try to narrow down using a more specific example as a way to test my understanding of VF?

    I have some ActualResources: Network, Project, JobRole, OrgUnit, Activity. These were given to me as a table in a spreadsheet by the client.

    I couldn't be sure of the exact relationship across these 5 different resource types even when given actual data, but I do know they are somehow related. I can make a guess, but everytime i code the database schema with this particular client project based on my guesses they turn out to be wrong and result in a lot of painful refacotring.

    Which motivated me to search for more flexible solutions hence I stumble on REA and VF

    There's a biz question that needs to be answered , which is given the identifiers of JobRole, OrgUnit and Project, return the associated Network.

    I am trying out Linkage pattern from the Hruby book (page 119-121) and adapted it for my use. Instead of having a parent, i simply have a ActualResourceLinkage datatable that stores all the associated identifiers across Network, Project, JobRole, OrgUnit, Activity under postgres jsonb field

    In other words 1 tuple or set of associated Network, Project, JobRole, OrgUnit, Activity records is represented as a single JSON dict in the JSONB field in a single data row in the postgres datatable ActualResourceLinkage. I just tried it out and it kinda worked though I am not sure what kind of possible errors I might encounter further down the road.

    And I do seem to depart from linkage pattern based on the book. I wonder if VF has a better way to solve this problem I face

    In either case, it's a dependent demand explosion: http://mikorizal.org/dependent_demand.pdf

    Thanks. I will read this in greater detail this weekend

    Bob Haugen
    @bhaugen
    What is Project? Is it something with a beginning and end and a deliverable or two at the end? Or is it like a team with a mission?
    What is JobRole? Is it some specific work to do, or an organizational position like Manufacturing Engineer?
    What is an Activity? Is it a specific action like knead the bread dough, or is it the whole process of making bread?
    What is Network in that context?
    simkimsia
    @simkimsia
    let me give you some fake data
    Bob Haugen
    @bhaugen

    Instead of having a parent, i simply have a ActualResourceLinkage datatable that stores all the associated identifiers across Network, Project, JobRole, OrgUnit, Activity under postgres jsonb field

    That seems different from Hruby's Linkage pattern which is a parent-child relationship.

    I don't have all the information and frankly neither do the people I interface with at the client side. I can answer some of ur questions to the best of my ability
    Project is some project they work on. Does it have a beginning and end and have delibervables? I'm sure there is but they don't tell me either because they don't have this information or because it is not pertinent to their work which is to generate some kind of Quotation
    JobRole is a position they need to get people to fill in to accomplish some aspects of Project
    Bob Haugen
    @bhaugen
    Looks like Project has a beginning and end and at the end, they upgraded a smart tower...
    simkimsia
    @simkimsia
    Network i was told will contain a planned budget (in dollar amount) and cumulative charge (also in dollar amount). beyond that I'm afraid no data

    What is an Activity?

    I suspect it's some internal labeling in fact you can think of all the 5 resources of various kinds of labeling which frankly is abstract to me and even to the end users

    what they want me to do is somebody (say Alice who is an Admin) in my system will type in the full associated data which I have screencaped above

    and later on in a different screen, somebody else in a different role (say Romeo in Resource Manager) will create a Quotation and in the individual Line Item key in info like Project identifier, JobRole identifier, OrgUnit identifier and the system should auto fetch the associated Network and display. Subsequently, they will save that Quotation. Of course my Quotation and LineItem need to save their chosen Project, JobRole, OrgUnit, and Network at the LineItem level amongst other information.

    This client has a complex workflow which nobody to date has shown me an actual end to end workflow on paper. it's all in their heads and parts of it done manually. I am helping them to automate parts of it.

    Bob Haugen
    @bhaugen
    Looks like a lot of abstractions.
    Do they have anything like a work breakdown structure?
    simkimsia
    @simkimsia

    Looks like a lot of abstractions.

    yes and i had a hard time in the initial stages. some of my assumptions kept getting broken. even the actual liaison i work with (who works as employee at the client side) he's also learning new facts as me at the same time

    simkimsia
    @simkimsia

    Do they have anything like a work breakdown structure?

    they do have a WBS but nothing to do with generating the Quotation. Their WBS is more for implementing for their client. I know this because one of another abstraction which I have not mentioned here yet is WBS number which will come from their SAP system

    Somehow, WBS will be associated with Network as well
    but that's not crucial at this point
    Bob Haugen
    @bhaugen
    What is the quotation for?
    simkimsia
    @simkimsia
    It's to send to their vendor
    Bob Haugen
    @bhaugen
    quotation for what work, or what is the vendor supposed to do?
    Too much abstraction to make sense to me.
    simkimsia
    @simkimsia
    The people at my client call it a Quotation document telling their vendor to do this work for them.
    Bob Haugen
    @bhaugen
    What work is the vendor supposed to do for them?
    simkimsia
    @simkimsia

    Too much abstraction to make sense to me.

    I apologise. I feel bad I cannot be more clear than this.

    Bob Haugen
    @bhaugen
    Upgrade a smart tower, I guess...?
    simkimsia
    @simkimsia

    What work is the vendor supposed to do for them?

    Apparently the vendor will send people to fulfil the job roles they request in this QUotation document to do work for the project stated. ANy more details than that I'm afraid I am also not aware.

    Bob Haugen
    @bhaugen
    Ok, so the vendor is supposed to staff this project?
    simkimsia
    @simkimsia

    Ok, so the vendor is supposed to staff this project?

    Yes

    Bob Haugen
    @bhaugen
    And then the people they send will be told what to do?
    simkimsia
    @simkimsia
    Yes
    Bob Haugen
    @bhaugen
    Ok
    simkimsia
    @simkimsia

    For now, my job is to create this quotation system. I can do it without any regard of REA, or VF. In fact, I have already created a different set of Quotation features for a different type. That has gone live in production.

    Let's call this first set Quotation Type A. In Type A, the Network is associated with completely different resources such as CommonSite, Scope, Project, and Activity.

    This set of Quotation I have mentioned earlier is Type B. As you can see the association is completely different. I am unable to reuse a lot of code I have previously written.

    I am wary of creating brittle systems, should I encounter change requests or new user stories that break my assumptions.

    hence my exploration into REA and VF

    I have to leave now. If there are more questions I am happy to answer later. I am grateful for your time already, @bhaugen much much appreciated :pray:
    Bob Haugen
    @bhaugen
    ok, thanks for the explanations.
    pospi
    @pospi
    @elf-pavlik curious in your thoughts on this proposal- valueflows/valueflows#603