benedikt_seidel: I am interested in hearing more details, I read what you linked and a few more documents on the github etc. It looks like a very exciting project
lynnfoster: Thanks! Like I mentioned earlier I worked on some accounting software that was compatible with REA, so hREA has been on my radar. I like svelte a lot too, I think it's "next gen" in the sense that it has some major benefits over the major competitors, so it's a good choice
Thanks, @jeremyboom8_twitter and the same to you. How/what are you doing these days?
Ditto! And to everyone else too!
btw, I rather like being a valueflower, so thanks! 🌻🌻🥀🥀 (whether you meant that or not.....)
FYI - Interesting work from P2P Foundation https://p2pfoundation.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/AccountingForPlanetarySurvival_def.pdf
But referenced on page 87, appendix interview with Bob & Lynn seems to be missing? "In the same direction, ValueFlows poses as a collective effort to capture and
systematize these learnings and work towards the creation of a set of common
vocabularies to describe flows of economic resources of all kinds within
distributed economic ecosystems. A concise overview of these developments
is presented in the Appendix, offered by Bob Haugen who, along with Lynn
Foster, is one of the key engineers of REA implementations."
systematize these learnings and work towards the creation of a set of common
vocabularies to describe flows of economic resources of all kinds within
distributed economic ecosystems. A concise overview of these developments
is presented in the Appendix, offered by Bob Haugen who, along with Lynn
Foster, is one of the key engineers of REA implementations."
@vortex:zorro.free2air.net a copy here:
http://mikorizal.org/Fromprivateownershipaccountingtocommonsaccoun.html
http://mikorizal.org/Fromprivateownershipaccountingtocommonsaccoun.html
Yeah, that appendix was left off by mistake (?), Michel asked that it be fixed at the time, but apparently that didn't happen. Sorry about that. Also note that there are broken links at this point, but those can all probably be found in the VF doc.
Another note, for people interested in this area of work: We're having discussions with a group interested in "ecological accounting", which includes Bill McCarthy, to fine tune the model and definitions to work towards a consistent way to use REA/VF in the context of climate change and other ecological disasters in the making - accounting for externalities, including interconnected ecosystems beyond the human one, etc. We hope to have something to share soon.
Ditto! And to everyone else too!
btw, I rather like being a valueflower, so thanks! 🌻🌻🥀🥀 (whether you meant that or not.....)
thank you! haha yeah i thought afterwards it should've be 'valueflowser' but valueflower is definitely better imo 🌻
Great option for solving Hulu error code-3&39: https://videosolo.org/hulu-error-code-3-and-hulu-error-code-39-solutions
Hi there! Nick Meyne from the coop credentials 'consortium' here https://coopcreds.com/ ... just reaching out to say we're working on W3C Verifiable Credentials as a foundation for identity and trust among coops (principle 6 co-operation.. economic, social, ethical, environmental and so on) The REA model is great for envisaging and structuring ecosystem exchanges that we hope to enable with our work on privacy-respecting identity for cooperative ecosystem actors. I love the work you are doing here with Valueflows and the rigour of the ontology and clarity of explanation. Thank you! We're looking at trial use cases at the moment... I'd love to apply some REA / VF pattern thinking to classify and validate the coming work. Any links to handy templates / tools would be welcome.
@bhaugen thanks for the welcome! There are som broad ones that we are looking at for a potential use case... mainly the 'mutualisation' of KYC processes across a co-operative ecosystem... where co-ops operate a system of mutual trust that reduces the cost and friction of membership ...and economic interaction see https://coopcreds.com/the-problems/ And then at a more detailed level there are the specifics for a couple of our member Co-ops Resonate and FairBnB.coop wanting to establish Stay Fair Play Fair, which involves a number of possible economic interactions:
@nmeyne yay P6! Would this be helpful in terms of thinking about templates/tools https://write.as/economic-networks/how-to-model-resource-flows-in-networks ? If not, don't worry, we'll work with you to find the right direction. And we're always happy to work with people directly on a specific use case, as always "the devil is in the details". :)
“Stay Fair Play Fair” used Co-op Credentials to help FairBnB.coop and Resonate work together to promote sustainable, fair and ethical music touring and tourism:
Co-op credentials would be a way of ensuring a FairBnB guest is member of Resonate or vice versa. This identity verification could support the following scenarios:
Guests might be attracted to stay with Fairbnb.coop if offered a more authentic experience from participation in community-rooted independent music.
Local Artists might find new listeners. Fairbnb.coop will reference and link to Resonate player and community and feature local artists and venues
Fairbnb.coop local co-ordinators could connect with local artists and curators, help establish listener accounts and drive greater earnings for artists.
The Resonate Player and Community Forum / Artists’ Circles could feature invite links to Fairbnb.coop lodging offers in communities associated with Artists (home towns or touring locations).
looking for tools to envision and potentially consider ways of mutualising the cost / benefit of common services across an ecosystem.
@nmeyne As of now, there is no software implementing Valueflows that is ready for use. The two projects that are closest to ready-for-use are https://bonfirenetworks.org/use-bonfire/ and https://github.com/holo-rea/holo-rea
For envisioning, we have been creating diagrams with https://app.diagrams.net/ using a visual language for resource flow diagrams inspired by category theory string diagrams: https://write.as/economic-networks/visual-languages-resource-flow-diagrams and for text, have been using YAML. Examples at https://www.valueflo.ws/examples/ex-agent/
@bhaugen Yes that's a great fit with the concept of 'portability' and 'selective disclosure' of credentials under the control of the human user (holder). The w3c spec on Verifiable Credentials expands that model by considering the role of issuers and verifiers of the credentials. https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-data-model/ We've done work on an open source 'plugin' for Discourse that allows this portability between platform instances. (Like Scout or Brownie badges issued by different troupes, but mutually recognised at the Jamboree :-) )
Hello, as for @bhaugen 's request I post here in case it is interesting a repository I use to test the generation of a Material Passport in the Reflow project, using Node-Red running locally and talking to an instance of Bonfire via GraphQL. You can run everything locally, but to actually load and read a data you also need an instance of Bonfire, such as what is provided by Reflow. The code (which is on a branch, not on master!) is at: https://github.com/WeMake-cc/reflow-nodered/tree/code
But thanks a lot for the link and info.
I shared it with the Bonfire team, they had questions that I can't answer. Do you have any screenshots or maybe https://www.loom.com/ recordings showing how it works?
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Not particularly Loom, any kind of easy screen flow recording.
I have added a screenshot of the Node-red tab and one of the code inside (not very indicative, but since I was at it), but I doubt this is what can answer Bonfire team's questions, maybe if I see them I can add more specific info in the Readme https://github.com/WeMake-cc/reflow-nodered/tree/code?
Hello! On the ValueFlows Wiki there are two example usages of VF (https://lab.allmende.io/valueflows/valueflows/-/wikis/Enspiral-Sample-Data and https://lab.allmende.io/valueflows/valueflows/-/wikis/CoLab-Sample-Data). Does the software that uses VF as in the examples exist or are these theoretical examples?
Hello @pukkamustard:matrix.org ! Those are quite old, we don't remember exactly. :/ We were and are very interested in "more or less real" use cases as input (like the flows are real or representative, the numbers and names not so much). The CoLab one we don't remember. There was a founding member of VF who worked at Enspiral at that time, so that probably came from them. But neither of those examples resulted in real VF-based software for those 2 groups, in fact VF wasn't even on its first release yet, it was early info-gathering days. If you are interested in the directions real software has gone, we can direct you to something that may suit your needs or your curiosities. And here are a lot of fake-but-detailed examples: https://www.valueflo.ws/examples/ex-agent/. And I suppose we should clean up our wiki, it has been mostly an ongoing place to stash stuff that doesn't fit in the formal doc or isn't ready.
Yeah, the Enspiral example came from Mikey Williams of Enspiral and I think he also gave us the Colab example. Enspiral had a working relationship with Colab, as you can see at https://colab.coop/blog/talking-collaboration-with-joshua/
But as Lynn said, those were examples to guide the vocabulary development. VF software did not exist. The vocabulary came out of https://github.com/open-app/core which was also started by Enspiral but quickly gathered a following including me and Lynn. OAE discussed independently developed apps, by different people, using different stacks, that could all work together, so the participants in the discussion decided they would need a common vocabulary so the apps could communicate as an ecosystem.
Thanks @fosterlynn and @bhaugen! From following the links I learned about the term Network Resource Planning ... makes a lot of sense to me. The projects I've seen seem to all use a relational data model (via Django ORM or Ecto). Have their been efforts to use/implement ValueFlows from a more RDF side?
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Putting this VF + RDF project in the main stream: https://lab.allmende.io/solidbase/solidbase
(Ended up in one of those annoying Gitter reply side panels, so invisible...)
(Ended up in one of those annoying Gitter reply side panels, so invisible...)
@pukkamustard:matrix.org that's the only VF+RDF implementation that I know of, so far, altho we are talking to other RDF fans who might want to collaborate on something new. If such an effort starts to come to life, are you interested in participating? If so, I will make sure you get into the loop.
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Great to hear what you're working on! I found you through Paul d'Aoust.
I also tried to do mutual credit on top of Solid for a while, see for instance https://solidos.solidcommunity.net/Team/2021/money-pane-project/money%20pane/index.ttl#this and https://github.com/solid/money-pane (but now working on https://federatedbookkeeping.org in general, using a bit more PHP and a bit less RDF since the last few months
I also tried to do mutual credit on top of Solid for a while, see for instance https://solidos.solidcommunity.net/Team/2021/money-pane-project/money%20pane/index.ttl#this and https://github.com/solid/money-pane (but now working on https://federatedbookkeeping.org in general, using a bit more PHP and a bit less RDF since the last few months
I mentioned SolidBase, ValueFlo.ws and Mikorzal in the deprecation notice of Solid OS MoneyPane, here: solid/money-pane@86e41ea
Welcome @michielbdejong - I took a quick peak at your federated bookkeeping stuff. Glad you popped in here, and I also just jointed your fedbooks gitter channel. Are you familiar with REA? https://www.valueflo.ws/appendix/rea/
and the work that Wim Laurier and others on REA-based collaboration spaces?
and the work that Wim Laurier and others on REA-based collaboration spaces?
I recently (last few weeks) did a related experiment to remove the organisation-centricity from bookkeeping, and take a bird's eye view of the value flows, I labeled it https://prejournal.org - I should try to use the REA model there!
And we just (yesterday) got some funding (50,000 euros) for Federated Timesheets https://gitter.im/federatedbookkeeping/timesheets - we could use a percentage of that for expressing timesheets in the ValueFlo.ws ontology.
And https://disco.coop/ might be interested in your time sheets.
I just stumbled upon feraltrade.org and it seems like a wonderful example of ValueFlows'y thinking...do you know about the project?