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    pospi
    @pospi
    thanks!
    another question: fulfillment / satisfaction/ settlement all have a quantity on them. Can this ever be different to the quantity of the thing relating to them? I would have thought that (for example) fulfillment.fulfilledQuantity would always be equal to economicEvent.affectedQuantity of the related event. Or can they diverge when an event over-fulfills the commitment?
    Lynn Foster
    @fosterlynn
    See answer here: https://github.com/valueflows/valueflows/issues/507#issuecomment-490857365 about the many-to-many relationships between Intent and Commitment, and between Commitment and EconomicEvent, last paragraph.
    Depending on the kind of commitment, they sometimes would under-fill (like if several events were logged separately over time to fulfill a commitment, or would over-fill for example if the commitment were just an estimate, which often happens for work, think programming)
    For intents, it could even be partial satisfaction by more than one agent, for example. Etc.
    It's kind of annoying when things do work out to be 1:1, which they often do, but the alternative was to have more than one relationship, which seemed the worse of the evils.
    Lynn Foster
    @fosterlynn
    Even for components in a manufacturing situation, you will get oddities.
    Lynn Foster
    @fosterlynn
    (sorry deleted a couple comments, wrong chat)
    pospi
    @pospi
    @elf-pavlik just had this come through from Sam Rose, thought it might be of interest to you since you've been playing with GraphQL + JSON-LD https://www.hypergraphql.org/
    pospi
    @pospi
    Also curious whether anyone knows of any unit conversion engines built for QUDT.. that could be really useful at some point
    pospi
    @pospi
    Ok, seems that is a limiting factor. Via @samrose -

    See this:

    "QUDT is also one of the medium sized ontologies.
    The most important issue of QUDT is its inferential
    inconsistency. For example, it contains the following
    definitions:
    Class: qudt:Unit
    SubClassOf:
    qudt:typePrefix exactly 1 owl:Thing,
    qudt:typePrefix value "U"^^xsd:string
    Class: qudt:ResourceUnit
    SubClassOf:
    qudt:Unit
    Class: qudt:FinancialUnit
    SubClassOf:
    qudt:ResourceUnit,
    qudt:typePrefix value "UF"^^xsd:string
    This means that every individual of the class
    FinancialUnit has the type prefix “UF”. Moreover, because it is also an individual of the class Unit,
    it has the type prefix “U”. As the number of type prefixes is, however, limited to one, this results in a conflict. As a result QUDT can not be used with a reasoner.
    Also critical, three conversions and two prefixes contained wrong factors."

    http://www.semantic-web-journal.net/system/files/swj1775.pdf

    Jan Martin Keil on 02/15/201

    I have not read that whole paper yet, there may be a better unit of measurement ontology for the target of using with reasoners

    Lynn Foster
    @fosterlynn
    Thanks much @pospi ! The other thing I don't like about QUDT is that the website is very hard to use. I also am a bit nervous about NASA's future, and a lot of the 2.0 version has been in process for a very long time. Even worse than us, and invisible, which we aren't. :) I did some investigation earlier this year to try to find a better one, and found a few to consider. But dropped it in favor of other priorities. Maybe time to go back to it!
    Ah, that looks like the paper I started with too.
    valueflows/valueflows#268 a little discussion here
    I'd be very interested to hear if Sam Rose has a recommendation!
    pospi
    @pospi
    I dunno if I'd rush right in there... until we have a reason to implement some general-purpose converter that can handle all types of units, it's probably not much of a problem. For the forseeable future I imagine we would be implementing conversions between units of the same type (eg. feet / meters) by hand?
    Lynn Foster
    @fosterlynn
    I'm pretty sure eventually we'll want people to be able to easily access conversions - which was actually one of the reasons we picked QUDT, although we didn't dig very deep. And that was early on when we were just getting our feet wet.
    One reason to "rush right in" would be that quantities are in several places so it would be nice to have the long term vocab terms there as early as possible. On the other hand, it is still hard to prioritize..... we'll see.
    Nick Redmark
    @nmaro
    Hey there :)
    Have beem following from afar, have been quickly in touch with you over at secure-scuttlebutt, wanted to ask you whether gundb as a possible collaboration/implementation opportunity is on your radar. Community is active, I've found developing distributed applications with it quite simple compared to other protocols I know you are familiar with. And they have a long-term vision that includes building new economic mechanisms.
    Nick Redmark
    @nmaro
    they are active on gitter too, amark/gun
    That's it, I hope that linking communities is useful :)
    Check "economic resource allocation" here: https://gun.eco/docs/Roadmap
    Bob Haugen
    @bhaugen
    @nmaro studying...... will respond tomorrow latest.
    But thanks for popping in and raising the potential.
    Bob Haugen
    @bhaugen
    @nmaro I skimmed the gundb info, and have a really superficial non-understanding.
    But enuf to have some questions.
    • Who's using gundb now to do what?
    • Do you have or know of a short comparison of gundb vs SSB, ActivityPub, and/or Holochain? (Any or all of those. One would help if it takes you some work.)
    Bob Haugen
    @bhaugen
    • As you said, they have plans for economic mechanisms. Do you understand their plans and the valueflows vocabulary well enuf to know if VF would not only work for them but also be welcome instead of being viewed as interference or competition?
    • And are you personally interested in trying some valueflows-gundb experiments?
    Bob Haugen
    @bhaugen
    @nmaro here's a comparison I did once before of Holochain, ActivityPub, and SSB: https://docs.google.com/document/d/14Naw_P2Lsqnf5EMRQYWugEB5KuxtLro61VWiPTtdg4o/edit?usp=sharing
    Nick Redmark
    @nmaro
    In my understanding the largest applications of gundb are notabug.io and party.lol
    Nick Redmark
    @nmaro
    Loosely using your document as a reference:
    • I'd say gundb has a protocol
    • Someone is trying to build a python version but it's going to be mainly javascript I believe
    • Focus on in-browser, no backend or daemons required (you could run a gundb app in a local html file) <- this is pretty much their usp
    • CRDT
    • They are working on DHT for discovery
    I don't know the two economical mechanisms enough to compare them
    Finally, I don't think I have the time. Working more on productivity/communication/collaboration tools right now - which once they include time logging could evolve towards economic activities. But it's a slow process.
    Thanks for looking into it
    Bob Haugen
    @bhaugen
    Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

    @nmaro

    Focus on in-browser, no backend or daemons required (you could run a gundb app in a local html file) <- this is pretty much their usp

    Yeah, seems to be. Also, that's the first time I have seen usp used in this way since the last century. But very appropriate.

    Nick Redmark
    @nmaro
    Just learned that d.tube, HackerNoon and wayback machine use it too.
    So, now I'm going to stop spamming 😉 I wish you a good continuation with your project
    Bob Haugen
    @bhaugen
    I did not feel spammed. Like you, I don't have time to do anything with it, but thought it was interesting.
    Lynn Foster
    @fosterlynn
    I did not feel spammed either, thanks much for the information @nmaro !
    pospi
    @pospi
    Question: what differentiates trace & track in Process from inputs & outputs?
    pospi
    @pospi
    I'm also curious which relationship drives Process.unplannedEconomicEvents as I can't see any references between EconomicEvent and Process other than inputs & outputs.
    The same for Process.nextProcesses & previousProcesses- are these assigned directly on Process or via some other relationship entity?
    Bob Haugen
    @bhaugen

    @pospi

    Question: what differentiates trace & track in Process from inputs & outputs?

    For a Process, if you are traversing resource flows in general, they are the same. If you are tracing or tracking a particular lot or other resource tracking identifier, then you are only concerned with economic events affecting resources with that identifier.

    Bob Haugen
    @bhaugen

    The same for Process.nextProcesses & previousProcesses- are these assigned directly on Process or via some other relationship entity?

    Those are found via traversals and it's good to encapsulate them in convenience methods because they will be used fairly often. This comment describes the traversals in narrative:
    https://github.com/valueflows/django-vocabulator/issues/7#issuecomment-303370274
    Here's some python code:
    https://github.com/valueflows/django-vocabulator/blob/master/vocab/models.py#L185

    Bob Haugen
    @bhaugen

    @pospi

    Clarification:

    Question: what differentiates trace & track in Process from inputs & outputs?

    For a Process, if you are traversing resource flows in general, they are the same. If you are tracing or tracking a particular lot or other resource tracking identifier, then you might be only concerned with economic events affecting resources with that identifier.

    It can be complicated. If you have a lot of sausage, and you are tracing for the source of mad cow prions, you may need to trace all the input lots to the process that made the sausage, and their inputs, all the way to the source animals.

    Lynn Foster
    @fosterlynn

    I'm also curious which relationship drives Process.unplannedEconomicEvents as I can't see any references between EconomicEvent and Process other than inputs & outputs.

    It isn't a different relationship between Process and EconomicEvent, it is whether the event fulfills a Commitment or not. That is conceptually, I'll double check some code later.