Alexander Praetorius
@serapath
and it will get easier and easier to prototype differnet features and experiment
which is a huge benefit
...and STILL be compatible to the vast ecosystem of existing code
so you can use your custom language without loosing all the existing written software that you can use if you need or want to
Zelphir Kaltstahl
@ZelphirKaltstahl
Maybe in the future we will have a language that only shares its runtime environment, the browser, with JS. It might consist of some features which were in JS (but haven't been invented there) and might be a liiiiiittle bit similar even, but it might not be JS anymore.
Alexander Praetorius
@serapath
@ZelphirKaltstahl it's not anymore about choosing one language over another. in the javascript ecosystem its a mashup where people can actually plug together their favorite features
seriously it will be JS
for sure
please, i can only recommend you to watch the video above
it's not about what i wish
i actually would wish a very functional language to be what works in the browser, but for historic reasons it is like it is... and companys like amazon, microsoft, google, and basically the entire world is investing like mad into this ecosystem - this seems to be the reality. so i can fight it and i was in the past exploring scala (because i didnt like java, but saw how javas ecosytem is huge) ...and i was thinking a lot of learning haskell or trying ocaml ...and whether i shouldu se a statically typed language or not
by choosing javascript in a way it's still all possible and there are sub communities who use all the different language dialects and features so you can pick your camp without being outside of where life is happening - which is what i felt with choosing a non-javascript language. ...thats what made it so hard
if you would consider watching the above video, i'd be really intersting about what you think of the arguments - it's exactly what i'm observing in the last years to unfold right in front of my eyes
and it's speeding up
Nina Breznik
@ninabreznik
Happy Birthday @ookangzheng :)
Alexander Praetorius
@serapath

@ZelphirKaltstahl

Maybe in the future we will have a language that only shares its runtime environment, the browser, with JS. It might consist of some features which were in JS (but haven't been invented there) and might be a liiiiiittle bit similar even, but it might not be JS anymore.

what do you mean with "only shares its runtime environment"?
There is also web assembly coming to all the browsers already now and is available in all the browsers in the near future.

Oo Kang Zheng
@ookangzheng
@ninabreznik thanks😊
Zelphir Kaltstahl
@ZelphirKaltstahl

@serapath I am watching the talk you linked (JS is eating the world). There are so many outright wrong conclusions or statements in the first 8 minutes, that I made a list of them. This guy's reasoning is seriously flawed, at least in logic. Maybe he has a point, but he certainly did not bring it across by using logical arguments and correct conclusions. Here is the list of things I do not agree with and I will stop making notes now, because it takes me painfully long time to stop after every second phrase to write down how it is untrue or a wrong conclusion or a non-fitting comparison etc.:

  • 3 Battle Fields:
    • Mobile = Browser eventually (soon), no need to distinguish
    • Server? Hopefully that includes OS. Otherwise: Wrong.
    • What about system close software (for example drivers)?
    • What about distributed software? Would probably be best written in Erlang or similar and not in Javascript, except if people are stupid enough to reinvent the wheel of message passing and cheap processes in Javascript.
  • So basically the "3 battle fields" theory is a false premises. I will assume it is simply a means for structuring the talk, instead of assuming that he wants to hide something intentionally.

  • He compares "scripting languages" with "compiled languages" - Python is compiled. Just an example. It is also a scripting language. So the sets are not disjunct and to separate them is a mistake, at least in terminology. Please learn about the terms you use to describe things.

  • "newest one" of server languages being C#? I think not. From when is that talk?!

  • Django and Rails new? hust
  • "companies have a compelling reason to move to a compiled language later on" Again: Python is a compiled language.
  • Twitter ditching Ruby on Rails because of scaling trouble – Yep, and what did they do? Erlang for scalability. Not JS. Maybe they use NodeJS somewhere down the road, but not to gain magical scalability.
  • NodeJS is no the best for scaling stuff. It's conceptually flawed even in how it uses multi processing.
  • General statement: In principle, it is the case, that some language is better suited for one thing than another. So it makes sense to use multiple languages for a server client project in the end. There is no need to force "all in one language" (as a result of all compilation at the end, for example something can also compile down to JS, making it two languages being used in the end). There is only a need for this, if we create a generation of stupid programmers, who only know JS.
  • Paypal example / argument does not make a lot of sense. If there were people for frontend and backend separately, then they would have been better in those areas. Now that they need to work with NodeJS, their capabilities are diminished. Basically throw away the backend stack and language, and force everyone to use NodeJS. I don't see the grand advantage here.
  • "If you have one savage expert …" – Yeah IF. But usually people have strength and weaknesses and you cannot rely on a single point of failure EVER. So that point makes no sense.
  • Comparing RoR with NodeJS makes not much sense, because RoR has always had a more bleeding edge philosophy, enabling breaking changes in many versions. I felt this when I tried some tutorials years ago and every tutorial had errors because of RoR in the meantime being updated.
  • "You have a set of engineers already familiar with JS …" – Well, I am familiar with many things, duh … It depends on how well I can use them out of my head!
    • Being familiar with JS does not make me a good software dev with JS.
  • "Every company has someone working with JS" – well of course, IN THE FRONTEND, DUH same is true for Python or Java or C btw. You'll always find someone who knows that! So that's an "advantage" as you call it.
So far not very convincing, but I'll keep watching. Maybe he will patch things up along the way.
Zelphir Kaltstahl
@ZelphirKaltstahl
using Python as an example of not so much work going on when it comes to performance is stupid. Firstly he is probably talking about CPython, but second thing is: There is PyPy, which is 6-8x speedup. But meh, not much work there …
Talking about performance of a language is also not really a great point, because it is never about the language, but always about the implementation of compilers and interpreters or whatever else in the runtime system remain.
Zelphir Kaltstahl
@ZelphirKaltstahl
Migration from Python 2 to Python 3 is a problem, which has looooong been solved. People still relying on Python 2 for developing new things are just outdated and unwilling to learn new things. For everything you could want there is at least a Python 3 equivalent if not something better.
This is the case in all areas where I used Python. Web development, GUIs, data science and machine learning and probably others I cannot think of right now.
So that is another point which dissolves into nothing and which argumentation cannot be based on.
Alexander Praetorius
@serapath
i dont know what to say. i think no amounts of arguments can solve it.
ppl will just do whatever they feel is right and i guess thats ok.
just do and use what makes you happy
Nina Breznik
@ninabreznik
For anyone who maybe haven't seen yet. @serapath and I built a new simple version of Javascript e-learning app.
We researched many online resources and connected them in a curriculum that will teach you Javascript syntax.
Videos are really high quality and in the app you also have a built in editor, so you can practice while watching tutorials!
Let us know how you like it and how we can improve it? Maybe different order or some additional video lessons? Would love to hear your opinion.
Alexander Praetorius
@serapath
@/all yes please give us feedback :-) the goal is to cover all basics in a really nice way. The more feedback we get, the more we can improve it and add explanation if anything is missing. :-)
Oo Kang Zheng
@ookangzheng
😊
Alexander Praetorius
@serapath

@/all I won't be able to support on facebook anymore, but I will continue to give support on gitter :-)

reason: 2 days ago i was discussing politics with my friend because elections are happening soon. This is when all of a sudden, after I hit enter to post a comment, facebook asked me to re-confirm my identity by typing in a verification code they would send me to my mobile phone number. Sad thing - I do not own my old mobile phone number anymore and thus can't do as they ask. I tried many ways to contact facebook, but they don't respond and no matter what i tried, there seems to be no alternative.
So I would be very happy to see many of you on gitter soon - you can also download the mobile gitter app on your phones :-) https://gitter.im/apps
chire888881
@chire888881
Hey, Alex. That's a bad news you can't use fb by that account anymore. By the way, have you decided when to come to Taiwan?! Since we are planning boot camp and want to promote it later. And hope everything is going well there haha
Alexander Praetorius
@serapath
yes. we don't know the exact date yet. we will probably return to asia at some time in december... but it might be first thailand and then from thailand we would see when to come to taiwan (maybe end of december or maybe january)
TzuYuan
@TzuYuanLiu
@serapath ohh is it because of you were talking about elections? It's sad news. Will you open another account?
Got it! So the exact date might not be decided until you guys go to Thailand?
Alexander Praetorius
@serapath

i dont know - but i think i will just leave facebook behind. There are so many more open apps and even open source versions.

  • I'm still using linkedin and xing (=german linkedin) and instagram and a few others...
  • gitter (will become open source + you can host it yourself + even without account you can browse chats)
  • github or twitter (very transparent) ...even though not open source
  • ...we plan to use a lot more p2p decentralized apps in the near future... so this is a good opportunity to start

I want to slowly get rid of all apps where i dont control and own my data and where i can get locked out like it just happened to me.
It's not easy and most apps are not as nice as something like facebook, but i don't want to continue empowering platforms like facebook
...if i just continue with this attitude for long enough, i will slowly find replacements for all the things :-)

TzuYuan
@TzuYuanLiu
Yeah I understand. Platforms like FB is indeed considered not transparent enough and things like block ppl out I heard that sometimes.
TzuYuan
@TzuYuanLiu
But still, we will keep posting events on FB until we find a even better tool. :D It's social group management function has its completion and there are a great amount of ppl using it.
Zelphir Kaltstahl
@ZelphirKaltstahl
A good tool might be Feeds from a website or blog, where events are announced. People interested can simply subscribe to the feed and read their messages. This way it is opt-in.
Announcing in chat also works.
And :+1: for leaving FB behind.
Alexander Praetorius
@serapath
@TzuYuanLiu yes - it's on our list to build a facebook group alternative for our community :-) ...but it might take a few more months before we get there. First we need to finish building the foundation on which we build an alternative and there is still quite a bit of work to do
Nina Breznik
@ninabreznik
At least we still have Gitter, which is a nice option specially because it's open and people who come to the app to learn can use it and ask for help :)
Oo Kang Zheng
@ookangzheng
:+1:
TzuYuan
@TzuYuanLiu
@ZelphirKaltstahl That's a good idea! Will try on that!
@serapath. Haha yes it does on our list! We got lots to do! But first is this coming bootcamp!
@ninabreznik Yes definitely. I will use gitter to contact you guys in the following days~~ :smile:
Alexander Praetorius
@serapath
yay ;-) maybe next month, we should have one or more video meetings to talk about some more details regarding possible locations and regarding participants. I think what we should do soon is to collect a list of people who confirm that they want to participate and interview them to write down their backgrounds and expectations. That we we can better know how many people to expect and how to "customize" the bootcamp
Alexander Praetorius
@serapath
@/all Mozilla Taiwan RIGHT NOW
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZiUCMOa7_M